General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

Ric

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And here is another report that really doesn't feel like a vaccine problem.

So a fellow who says he was perfectly fit yet was on blood thinners ,had diabetes plus has had coronary artery stents has a brain bleed.The blood thinner sounds a bit more likely to be the problem.
As a general question, I take Cartia everyday. So I should stop taking Cartia, say a week before my AZ jab?
(before flame comes on, of course I will discuss with my regular GP too.:))
 

drron

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Well I took my cartia regularly every day when I had my jab.
Reading between the lines it was probably not Cartia but an anticoagulant.His conditions would make him more likely to have a heart rhyhm problem -atrial fibrillation- which requires a different drug than Cartia and also makes it more likely if you have a bleeding episode it will be more severe.
 

Pushka

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And here is another report that really doesn't feel like a vaccine problem.

So a fellow who says he was perfectly fit yet was on blood thinners,had diabetes plus has had coronary artery stents has a brain bleed.The blood thinner sounds a bit more likely to be the problem.
I have always been told that I may expect something like this. My mum did on warfarin. I'm not on warfarin but Xarelto so different impact on blood but niece in her thirties is on that rat poison. I did not stop taking anticoagulant and haven't for four years.
 

burmans

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Well, now that cough is out of patent, they did have to find another cash cow to keep the profit wheels greased...
If there was no money in doing it, we would never have had a coronavirus vaccine, so I for one am OK with them making some money out of it.
 

Pushka

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If there was no money in doing it, we would never have had a coronavirus vaccine, so I for one am OK with them making some money out of it.
Yes I agree with that but it is also at the heart of the issue in getting mass vaccination supplies out to countries like India. It's the IP protection that is the issue. As a business who has registered IP for our business I understand the need for protection but releasing the IP for vaccine production in this instance would save so many lives.
 

mviy

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I understand that, but if they give away their IP they may lose a competitive advantage for further treatments using the technology for other conditions. The company is obliged to act in the best interests of its shareholders as a whole. If they gave away the IP and the share price dropped significantly in value there'd be a strong chance of a class action lawsuit being brought against the company.
 

Pushka

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I understand that, but if they give away their IP they may lose a competitive advantage for further treatments using the technology for other conditions. The company is obliged to act in the best interests of its shareholders as a whole. If they gave away the IP and the share price dropped significantly in value there'd be a strong chance of a class action lawsuit being brought against the company.
Yes. No good answer, is there!
 
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Lynda2475

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If companies are forced to donate/give away their IP they will stop investing in vaccine development. Without patent protections and potential for profits we wouldn't have the most effective vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) available and millions of fewer people worldwide would have been vaccinated.

The problem with asking private companies to waive IP enforcement even temporarily is that once you have shared the secret recipe its out, there is no putting the Genie back in the bottle. Once China, India and Russia have been given the method to produce knock-off version of Pfizer/Moderna, you cant trust them to stop making it (and permanently undercutting the inventors revenue ) at the end of the emergency waiver period.

Plus loaning IP removes the ability for the patent holder to ensure the quality and safety of production, if the knock off versions take short cuts it will then damage the brand for the legit stuff and that erodes confidence everywhere.

More sensible would have been for the governments who have in some instances co-sponsored some of the development to put in a clause that x% of vaccine been produced, be made available "at cost" distribution to poorer countries. In fact this is what Covax facility is supposed to achieve.

But also need to be realistic, mrna vaccines are never going to be in wide use in developing world due to lack of the required super cold storage chains needed. When you are talking about counties like Brazil, India and much of Africa where millions live without running water they need to start with technology which is more readily deployable like AZ.
 

mviy

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But also need to be realistic, mrna vaccines are never going to be in wide use in developing world due to lack of the required super cold storage chains needed. When you are talking about counties like Brazil, India and much of Africa where millions live without running water they need to start with technology which is more readily deployable like AZ.
Indeed. They need to go with cheap to procure and deploy vaccines. Right now they need to vaccinate as many as they can as fast as they can.
 

OZDUCK

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Some interesting news out of the U.S. (Courtesy of the NY Times.)

Firstly, it will soon, hopefully, become a lot easier to store the Pfizer vaccine.

"Pfizer’s chief executive, Dr. Albert Bourla, said the company approached the F.D.A. on Friday with new data that it hopes will persuade the agency to allow its vaccine to be kept at refrigerator temperatures, rather than frozen, for up to four weeks. Currently, the limit is five days. He said the company is working on an updated version of the vaccine that could potentially be kept in refrigerators for up to 10 weeks, and hopes to have supporting data for that in August."

And secondly the age range for use of this vaccine could soon be greatly extended.

"Pfizer expects to apply to the Food and Drug Administration in September for emergency authorization to administer its coronavirus vaccine to children between the ages of 2 and 11, the company told Wall Street analysts and reporters on Tuesday during its quarterly earnings call.

The company said it also plans to apply this month for full approval of the vaccine for use in people from ages 16 to 85. And it said it expected to have clinical trial data on the safety of its vaccine in pregnant women by early August.

By early next week, the F.D.A. is expected to issue an emergency use authorization allowing the vaccine to be used in children 12 to 15 years old, a major step ahead in the U.S. fight against Covid."
 

ethernet

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Canada is delaying Pizfer booster shots:

One size does NOT fit all
If companies are forced to donate/give away their IP they will stop investing in vaccine development. Without patent protections and potential for profits we wouldn't have the most effective vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) available and millions of fewer people worldwide would have been vaccinated.

The problem with asking private companies to waive IP enforcement even temporarily is that once you have shared the secret recipe its out, there is no putting the Genie back in the bottle. Once China, India and Russia have been given the method to produce knock-off version of Pfizer/Moderna, you cant trust them to stop making it (and permanently undercutting the inventors revenue ) at the end of the emergency waiver period.

Plus loaning IP removes the ability for the patent holder to ensure the quality and safety of production, if the knock off versions take short cuts it will then damage the brand for the legit stuff and that erodes confidence everywhere.

More sensible would have been for the governments who have in some instances co-sponsored some of the development to put in a clause that x% of vaccine been produced, be made available "at cost" distribution to poorer countries. In fact this is what Covax facility is supposed to achieve.

But also need to be realistic, mrna vaccines are never going to be in wide use in developing world due to lack of the required super cold storage chains needed. When you are talking about counties like Brazil, India and much of Africa where millions live without running water they need to start with technology which is more readily deployable like AZ.
Like HIV/AID's is is always good to remind people in dirt poor countries, that their deaths are not in vain, because their death supports the IP and profits for future cures after they are dead. It is just the wheel of fate that they weren't born into a rich developed country.

As for copying the technology, this is BS. Making mRNA is surprisingly easy, if you have a master copy(One vial will do). Grossly oversimplified three steps Ferment/Grow, 1st pass, filter test refine what grew (Note you could maybe get away injecting here, if some impurity is acceptable), then as in the US a high tech huge huge cleanroom, final filtering, QA, testing, batch rejections, packaging etc. This is the value added step, because batch compliance/certification is the biggie, plus post stabilization measures so it does not go 'off'. Anyone with the right equipment can reverse engineer, as long as being ignorant of yield is OK.
UQ geneclamp tech - could potentially be used in filtration somewhere.

The drug companies will have a major 'fit' is sloppy production harms their brand, and devalue all the expensive trial work. And small batches solve any less than perfect contamination / variants that crept in.

The complications being added - sterile plastic bags for the growth medium - not stainless steel wine vats, and the new or clean or reuse arguments for a lot of pipes and glassware.

So for Australia, we need big big clean-room, get used to absolute sterile , and I presume lots of sterile water to turn the place into a giant autoclave if necessary.. As .au never did silicon chip manufacturing, there would be a learning curve here. Plus we would have to import most of the equipment. On the plus side we have the brains to design/adapt mRNA, and produce samples, and do QA and defined and proven models.

The major failure of this logic, is that each of the US biggies had several almost identical computer modeled solutions, and picked what they thought was the best one. And that is their secret sauce. Now that the virus has potentially different or multiple spikelets, the problem N to the power of... will present going forward. As nobody is boasting having a variant solution yet, I suggest 'tough problem' , or a whole lot of funding to see how multiple mRNA's work if mixed, or if they trigger adverse reactions, and the best ratios /intervals.

The other error is a global shortage of equipment to duplicate this capability, and the need to concentrate on the now.
 

OZDUCK

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bulldog88

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It's massively in the US national interest to get the world vaccinated as quickly as possible.
Aside from the humanitarian aspect, there would be less chance of Covid mutations, less chance of war/conflict, faster global economic recovery (helping US corporate profits and stock prices).

Just need to make sure that investors who risked big $$ developing medications still receive a decent return.
 
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dajop

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Maybe because the US Government put significant money into the vaccines developement.
View attachment 247305

View attachment 247306
Well it looks like I’m doing my bit! 😂

After considering funding on a per capita basis, my taxes (most of which I pay in Singapore) are making a good contribution to COVID vaccine R&D - around $45 for every resident.
 

drron

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Maybe this is what we need to increase vaccination rates.
"Any New Jerseyan who gets their first COVID-19 vaccine dose in May 2021 and takes their vaccination card to a participating brewery will receive a free beer. The bars include the Hackensack Brewing Company, Gaslight Brewery, and Restaurant, Battle River Brewing, and others."

And some local comment on Novavax.

And resulys from nursing homes in Chicago.The most important point is with infections in fully vaccinated people it did not lead to secondary transmission.

And more on vaccines and variants.
 

drron

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A report on antibody levels against covid found in the UK.A large percentage have such antibodies and for the over 50s the percentage is in the high 90s which helps to explain their improving results.Though antibodies are not the only facyor in immunity.
 

openseat

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Maybe this is what we need to increase vaccination rates.
"Any New Jerseyan who gets their first COVID-19 vaccine dose in May 2021 and takes their vaccination card to a participating brewery will receive a free beer. The bars include the Hackensack Brewing Company, Gaslight Brewery, and Restaurant, Battle River Brewing, and others."
They used to offer beer at the blood bank!
 
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