Drive-By Pick-Up Penalty at Sydney International

[file51]

Having worked at Sydney for almost 10 years, with a good chunk of that at T1 I can assure you there are plenty of signs stating very clearly that "Pick Up's" are not permitted on the departure level. As has already been stated, Taxi drivers get fined for this and if memory serves me correct, there infringement value is 2-3 times what the average punter will get (same goes with Limo's, shuttle buses, etc all of which have there own area downstairs for parking and pick ups).

Usually when a ticket is issued a digital photo is taken for proof of the offence, plus every square inch of the forecourt and roadway is under CCTV coverage anyway if the photo was not sufficient.

I think it is wrong and greedy, but hey, we are dealing with a bank after all.

It wouldnt hurt to question the infringement and play dumb... drop off, pick up, whats the difference???

 

[somebol]

This is what we get with 'privitised airports'.

5-6 years ago before mac airports... I used to do the same thing when picking up friends from the airport. Back then there were no signs prohibiting pickups.

 

[file51]

This is what we get with 'privitised airports'.

5-6 years ago before mac airports... I used to do the same thing when picking up friends from the airport. Back then there were no signs prohibiting pickups.

...back then you could actually help someone with there luggage and not have to worry about a ticket.

Whilst I personally think 90% of the issues relate to private ownership, we cant forget 9/11, the airport bombings in the UK etc etc as airports appear to be soft targets to those that are misguided in life.

 

[FL360]

The way to do it is to put dirt on BOTH of my license plate.
I put them on just before I enter the airport and remove
once I left the airport.

I prefer to pay the NSW government (if caught by a cop) rather than Mac Bank. People need more effort to get my money.

 

[NYCguy]

I think it is wrong and greedy, but hey, we are dealing with a bank after all.

Not just any old bank, but an investment bank, the Mako sharks of the banking world.

 

[winetraveller]

I had a very bad tempered State Trooper on friday. I was picking up the GF at a frigid Logan (Boston). As it was about 4F (-15c) I parked in the cell phone lot and she called me when she landed.

I then drove to Terminal C, and called her as I was approaching so that she didn't have to stand out in the cold. I pulled up, and got out of the car to look for her. I couldn't see her immediately as there were several buses in the way. A State Trooper came up with 5 seconds of me stepping out of the car, and said "where is your party", I said she's on her way, but he very angrily told me to move immediately.

I went to get back in the car, and lingered a little, and the GF was there, and in the car within 30 secs.

The guy scowled at me as I drove off. Mind you I wouldn't be all that happy if I was standing out in the cold on traffic duty.

 

[kiwikroozer]

I don't see a similarity. The airport specifically prohibits picking up passengers from the departures level and provides a pick up area at arrivals. There seems to be a deliberate flouting of the rules and now complaining that got hit with the penalty. The departures area would be a nightmare for dropping passengers off if everyone decided that they were above the rules

I see this as more akin to a driver getting caught speeding and then trying to suggest that the speeding rules shouldnt apply to them and so the fine should be vacated

Dave

OUCH!

Okay - I plead guilty to drifting away from the primary issue here, so I'll try to come back on track.

(1) My wife was the driver - I was at work. I didn't know of her 'transgression' until the document arrived in the post yesterday. This thread is on her behalf (or in fact the behalf of the incoming passenger, who instructed her on where to pick her up!).

(2) The infringement notice said:
OFFENCE - No Stopping Signs
Total Amount Payable - $132.00

(3) My Original query was re. a technical issue, not a moral debate (so apologies for digressing).

I originally asked:
* if there were any No Stopping signs as specifically referred to in the infringement notice. Apparently there are not, but I have now learned from this forum that there are other signs that do prohibit picking up in the dropping off area. Point taken, but as I said, I shall embark on my own investigation of same for clarity
* if the airport authority had the power to enforce the fine...Mixed response to that one.
And how would they prove the misdemeanour? No notice, notice of a forthcoming notice or even verbal censure was received at the time.
* if anyone else had had a similar experience
* if others considered $132.00 a justifiable penalty for a 30-second slip-up.

I humbly apologise for drawing such a long bow with my reference to council rangers and dogs as a comparable analogy (another personal - and in our case community - axe sneaking in there, lol).
I would, however, venture to suggest that a speeding fine,given its context of public safety and life-and-death considerations, is equally inapplicable to this issue.
Hey - I could be wrong - I have been on the odd occasion ;-)>

But digressions aside, I think my original questions are valid from our point-of-view, and I thank all for the mostly constructive contributions.

Cheers
KK

 

[kiwikroozer]

Having worked at Sydney for almost 10 years, with a good chunk of that at T1 I can assure you there are plenty of signs stating very clearly that "Pick Up's" are not permitted on the departure level. As has already been stated, Taxi drivers get fined for this and if memory serves me correct, there infringement value is 2-3 times what the average punter will get (same goes with Limo's, shuttle buses, etc all of which have there own area downstairs for parking and pick ups).

Usually when a ticket is issued a digital photo is taken for proof of the offence, plus every square inch of the forecourt and roadway is under CCTV coverage anyway if the photo was not sufficient.

I think it is wrong and greedy, but hey, we are dealing with a bank after all.

It wouldnt hurt to question the infringement and play dumb... drop off, pick up, whats the difference???

Thanks for that - all good points, and much appreciated.

The reality is that my wife's pick-up passenger has happily accepted full responsibility, and is fully prepared to pay up.
As for playing dumb - she'd do that well!! Remember the Ringo Starr song "Act Naturally" ?! heh heh
;-)>

May I ask, though - what are the specific regulations for passing through pick-ups at the arrivals level of Sydney Internationl nowadays?
Are they not permitted any more?
Do ALL meeters and greeters have to park in the carpark these days, or is there a way around that?

 

[pblackm]

Up until about three years ago, when I was returning to SYD in the evening, my wife used to collect me from the T3 Departures drop-off area. I figured that this was quick and as there were very few departees, no problem. We were blissfully unaware of the rules. A parking guy pointed out the sign which was quite clear (had never read it) and said he'd fine us next time.

It is the same at T1, but there, there is NO collection point other than using the car park. This sucks, especially as many international airports DO allow pickups, and that the double whammy is that SYD's parking is more expensive than JFK and LHR. Of course, it is owned by the same bank that bought Smartcart International and jacked up the trolley fee 33% a few weeks later.

 

[NM]

My Original query was re. a technical issue, not a moral debate (so apologies for digressing).

So I will address the query points below

I originally asked:
* if there were any No Stopping signs as specifically referred to in the infringement notice. Apparently there are not, but I have now learned from this forum that there are other signs that do prohibit picking up in the dropping off area. Point taken, but as I said, I shall embark on my own investigation of same for clarity

It would appear the signs clarify that there is no stopping permitted for the purpose of picking up passengers. Please let us know the exact wording on the signs - photos may also be of interest. But be aware that taking photos in that area of an airport may attract adverse attention from security and police, so may not be such a good idea.

* if the airport authority had the power to enforce the fine...Mixed response to that one.

I believe they do have such power and have been enforcing such for some time. In fact, they must have passed the number plate details to the RTA (or whatever the government authority is in NSW) to obtain an address to send the infringement notice. That implies to me that at leave one government department does believe they have the right to contact the registered owner of the vehicle regarding the indiscretion.

And how would they prove the misdemeanour? No notice, notice of a forthcoming notice or even verbal censure was received at the time.

They obviously have your number plate details. These were wither taken from CCTV footage, a photo taken by an airport traffic enforcement officer or a manual entry in a notebook by an airport traffic enforcement officer. I expect any of these would be sufficient proof to justify the infringement notice.

* if anyone else had had a similar experience

You are no doubt not the first to have received such a notice.

* if others considered $132.00 a justifiable penalty for a 30-second slip-up.

This amount is less than the NSW fine for stopping in a "No Stopping" zone. The current NSW fine for stopping in a No stopping zone is $189.

Changes to parking laws effective 1 December 2008
No Standing and No Stopping signs
From 1 December 2008 all ‘No Standing’ zones will become ‘No Stopping’ zones

NSW parking laws are changing from 1 December 2008. To bring our system into line with the Australian Road Rules, all ‘No Standing’ zones are being removed. ‘No Standing’ zones will become ‘No Stopping’ zones.

This means that even in instances where the sign has not yet been changed, the rules for ‘No Stopping’ apply and a $189 fine will be incurred for any violation. If, however, you stop in a 'No Stopping' zone that is in an operating school zone the fine is $243 and 2 demerit points.
‘No Parking’ and ‘Loading Zone’ rules remain unchanged.

'No Stopping' = You may not stop your vehicle for any reason.

'No Parking' = You may not stop for longer than 2 minutes and only to drop off or pick up passengers or goods (i.e. you must remain within 3 metres of your vehicle).

I believe this infringement is akin to stopping in a No Stopping zone in down town Sydney and see no reason why similar penalties should not apply.

There is good reason to enforce such activity at a busy airport such as SYD. The owners of the airport have designed the infrastructure to provide efficient traffic flows for all airport users. At times there are some major congestion problems in certain areas and I am sure things could be better. But they have provided specific areas for drop-off and for pick-up of airport users. If people are permitted to ignore the signs (i.e. they are an exception to the rule) then what is the point of having designated areas for different purposes.

One person stopping for 30 seconds in the drop-off area may not seem like a problem. However, others trying to use the drop-off area may have been inconvenienced and delayed in their pursuit of dropping off passengers, and if lots of people were all doing at the same time, the entire drop-off area may become blocked for people trying to drop-off. The rules are there for a reason (to try to reduce the traffic congestion in the airport precinct) and in my opinion these rules should be enforced.

It is unfortunate that your wife did not know the rules or see the signs and that the arriving passenger gave her instructions that resulted in her breaking the rules and receiving a fine. It becomes an expensive way to avoid the fees at the airport short-term parking facility.

 

[medhead]

On a similar note - never speed in an airport area. In Australia, I've seen speed camera vans at the Brisbane Airport,

During the mid 90s I was reliably informed that the tower at BNE would switch on a light (maybe red) near the top of the tower whenever they were doing speed checks on Airport Drive, apparently to help the aircrew.. I've never seen the light myself - didn't check the one time I got done - but it supposed to be noticable. No, it's not the big rotating light on top of the tower

 

[JohnK]

I noticed this back in September when I was going to New Zealand for the weekend. I was driving the car and was going to show my Dad where to pick me up in the Arrivals level when we saw the signs for "No pick-up" in the arrivals level.

Found a spot where he could pick me up outside the entrance to the car park before approaching arrivals. Did not see any signs of "No Standing", "No Stopping" or "No pick-up" so assumed this was OK. When I arrived back into Sydney I walked through the car park and waited for my Dad to arrive.

 

[kiwikroozer]

Once again, thanks to everyone who has responded to this.

The at-home jury is still out on whether the signs are "No Stopping" signs. If they are not, given that the infringement is specifically based on the claim that a No Stopping sign was in existence and was ignored, then TECHNICALLY, regardless of what the signs DO say, the specifics of the infringement notice are inaccurate.

I appreciate all the rights-and-wrongs points made. Clearly, they should not have executed a pick-up in that area. Totally acknowledged by me, the absent registered owner of the vehicle in question, and a point I have already stressed to my Beloved.

But that is not what I am concerned about.
All I am now addressing is a specific point-of-law - the claim of a NO STOPPING sign being present. If there is not such a sign, it doesn't matter WHAT the wording of the actual sign was, the details of the infringement notice are incorrect, so therefore legally invalid.
This is perhaps a cynical approach, but it is nevertheless a strategy/defence that has been lodged many times in the context of parking infringements generally in this country, and has been found to be a valid argument - a legal technicality that has resulted in many illegal parkers being let off.
Nothing more, nothing less.

As I said yonks ago, if this proves to be ineffective, the person responsible will cop it sweet(ly) and pay the fine as ordered.

I'll let you know the outcome in due course.
Meantime, have a happy day, folks!!
;-)>
KK

 

[Alanslegal]

It is the same at T1, but there, there is NO collection point other than using the car park. This sucks, especially as many international airports DO allow pickups, and that the double whammy is that SYD's parking is more expensive than JFK and LHR.

Agreed on all points.

Look at SYDMacAirport website, they advise if your dropping off or picking up passengers to use the carpark!?!?!?!?!

Dropping Off or Picking Up Convenient parking is available for short stay visitors to the T1 International Terminal. All spaces are on Arrivals level within the T1 public car park, directly in front of the terminal.

Click here for rates.


Rates are calculated from time of entry
up to 1/2 hour
$7

 

[rwatts]

Its no wonder that Macquarie has already recouped their investment in Sydney Airport - Flying high: but Sydney Airport's falling traffic volumes could be a problem

Deals don't come much better than Sydney Airport. Since it was privatised by the Government in 2002, Macquarie has recouped 100 per cent of its investment, even before fees, though the downturn in air traffic has put the debt-laden airport under pressure. ...

Richard.

 

[oz_mark]

MacBank have taken their money back, but left the airport saddled with debt:

The rub is that, as is typical of private equity deals where the cash is stripped out and debt plonked in, borrowings are now $2 billion higher than the original acquisition price and the owners have had to tip in more cash to satisfy the banks.

Now the airport users are paying through the nose just to meet interest payments!

 

[JohnK]

Now the airport users are paying through the nose just to meet interest payments!

This is called modern economics and progress. Private equity deals should be made illegal....

 

[ColinP]

All I am now addressing is a specific point-of-law - the claim of a NO STOPPING sign being present. If there is not such a sign, it doesn't matter WHAT the wording of the actual sign was, the details of the infringement notice are incorrect, so therefore legally invalid.
This is perhaps a cynical approach, but it is nevertheless a strategy/defence that has been lodged many times in the context of parking infringements generally in this country, and has been found to be a valid argument - a legal technicality that has resulted in many illegal parkers being let off.
Nothing more, nothing less.

KK

If you are correct about the signs I believe you have a good chance of succeeding in a legal challenge.

I once parked at ADL on a vacant piece of land while I went to SYD for the day. I returned to find an infringement notice for " Parking on the nature strip". The car was parked more than 6 metres from the kerb on what was quite obviously a vacant block. I took photos and measurements before moving the car and challenged (successfully) the infringement on the basis that I was NOT parked on the nature strip. I was probably trespassing but that's not what was alleged on the notice.

 

[mcm72]

Is it just me ?

But I find this totaly unbelavable,

Mac Corp, want to "heard" you into the "paid" parking area to pick up passengers,(the same people they have already charged for landing, at Sydney airport, via your airline ticket)

OR if you try to use another area to pick up someone, they will fine you.

Then if they do fine you, They will be allowed to get your details from the Govt dept, so they may send you a fine.

Why under these circumsatances should the governmnet department ( RTA etc ) be allowed to breach your privacy to a private company? :shock:
Some sort of sweatheart deal done with the Govt no doubt ??:evil:

If i rung the RTA up to ask the owners details for a vehicle based on a rego number,, i doubt i would get anything from them !

Just because they are a LARGE company, should not give them the right to run "ruff shot" over the public,
Especially when you have a captive market. I would have thought that fair trading / competition commision might have had somthing to say about this sort of issue ?

what do others think ?

 

[medhead]

Why under these circumsatances should the governmnet department ( RTA etc ) be allowed to breach your privacy to a private company? :shock:
Some sort of sweatheart deal done with the Govt no doubt ??:evil:

Probably because there is legislation allowing this. In South Australia they have private parking areas legislation. This allows anyone who has a private parking area, as defined, like a shopping center, or the small suburban office building I work in, to make a deal for the council to police parking in your carpark. Issue fines that sort of thing.

No doubt they have something similar in NSW. also I doubt that they give the airport any information. NSW EPA issue littering fines based on car rego. This involved sending the details of the offence to the police section that issues all vehicles fines - speed cameras that sort of thing. They then send out the fine to the vehicle owner, no information is returned to the EPA. Probably the same happens with the airport.