A dumb rule [Restricted Economy ineligible for Int. Upgrades]

[UP4014]

Re: A dumb rule

I understand the rule and accept it. What's the big deal.

Be careful as some airlines want to deliver less and less and some don't deliver SC/points on the cheapest fares.

Not sure if me or a promo but I can upgrade my red e deal tickets for January (domestic) to business for a bunch of points above the normal rate at present.

I love the post about "if I buy a more expensive Y ticket I expect 100% to get the upgrade".

Matt

 

[The Flying Brick]

Re: A dumb rule

I understand the rule and accept it. What's the big deal.

Be careful as some airlines want to deliver less and less and some don't deliver SC/points on the cheapest fares.

Not sure if me or a promo but I can upgrade my red e deal tickets for January (domestic) to business for a bunch of points above the normal rate at present.

I love the post about "if I buy a more expensive Y ticket I expect 100% to get the upgrade".

Matt

Surely the point of this discussion is that if QF allow upgrades of domestic Red E fares (for a higher number of points than a Y fare) then why not follow the same practice on QF international flights.

Whilst it is impossible to upgrade a QF international 'S' econ ticket and usually impossible to upgrade an 'O' ticket (outside of promos) it is possible to a least request an upgrade any QF domestic discount econonmy ticket, even if disappointment often awaits.

If it is the same yield management module at work for QF International and Domestic then why the difference?

 

[serfty]

Count yon blessings! When I joined QFF points upgrades for international flights wee not available at all.

 

[UP4014]

Re: A dumb rule

Surely the point of this discussion is that if QF allow upgrades of domestic Red E fares (for a higher number of points than a Y fare) then why not follow the same practice on QF international flights.

Whilst it is impossible to upgrade a QF international 'S' econ ticket and usually impossible to upgrade an 'O' ticket (outside of promos) it is possible to a least request an upgrade any QF domestic discount econonmy ticket, even if disappointment often awaits.

If it is the same yield management module at work for QF International and Domestic then why the difference?

Because it's their business to make the decisions on QF policy, not ours.

Passengers or shareholders can write in, then vote with their wallet. Their our choices.

If I choose to fly UA to the US it's possible to get a cheap paid for upgrade at Check in, some airlines do it and some don't and I'll have more luck on Tuesdays.

Here we have the OP who bought the cheapest tickets he could (fair enough) and then whinges (for want of a better term) he can't do much with his cheapest tickets. I would suggest that the OP has unrealist expectations.


Matt

 

[Edge]

Re: A dumb rule

I have to agree with the OP on this one. As long as upgrades on the deepest discount tickets are processed at the end of the queue, regardless of status, why not?

My educated guess is that the value of empty business class seats that could be upgraded via points outweighs that of people that purchase more expensive Y tickets just because they're potentially upgradeable.

It's a pure example of lose-lose.

 

[sweens]

Re: A dumb rule

I have to agree with the OP on this one. As long as upgrades on the deepest discount tickets are processed at the end of the queue, regardless of status, why not?

My educated guess is that the value of empty business class seats that could be upgraded via points outweighs that of people that purchase more expensive Y tickets just because they're potentially upgradeable.

It's a pure example of lose-lose.

Agree absolutely...QF could process upgrades on the deepest discount tickets at the end of the queue and it would be a win - win, if an upgrade came through.

Does it really make sense for QF to fly with a bunch of empty J seats if a good customer is prepared to spend the points to upgrade and is OK with waiting at the back of the queue giving higher fare tickets get first crack at an upgrade.

The question is aren't the points redemption worth more than the J class catering cost to QF and consider the kudos...a happy customer as well!

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Re: A dumb rule

AA allow you to use EVIP upgrades on any fare bucket. Previously there was a minimum fare bucket, but this rule changed a few years back. I must say, I have only ever purchased the cheapest fare since then. And every upgrade has come through for me.

And AA are nearly bankrupt.

QF yield are very clever, and you all underestimate their ability to sell a J or F cash fare at the last minute, or cater for fully flexible changes.

I can tell you that if I was in full fare paying J/F wanting to change on to said flight and the last seat was given to a cheap fare bucket upgrade, I would expect them to displace the pax. I'm fairly certain they would too. They hold on to seats for these reasons.

The chance of $7k worth more to them than the guarantee of $150 or whatever the notional points value (it's low).

 

[drewbles]

Re: A dumb rule

That paint analogy was hilarious, thank you!

I totally agree - Qantas must understand that many companies now only book the cheapest available fare. Who in their right mind books a flexi fare just so they have the opportunity to upgrade? is the catering really worth ~$400+?

OP hits the nail on the head - it costs very little more for the carrier to host an additional passenger in J so why not burn the points and reduce the liability?

That said, upgrades are overpriced anyway.

Plenty of companies book flexi fares, for the umm flexi-bility?

Business people travel and spend life in meetings, where things, and often do, change quickly and require flights to be shuffled. It's far cheaper than change fees or forfeiting fares.

 

[drewbles]

Re: A dumb rule

And AA are nearly bankrupt.

AA Just announced two consecutive respectable profits for the pervious quarters. So much so, it was actually jeopardising their merger with US, as the DOT was asking why AA stated that without merging neither would survive (when clearly, AA are actually emerging from their Chapter 11 much better than they thought).

 

[drewbles]

Re: A dumb rule

AA allow you to use EVIP upgrades on any fare bucket. Previously there was a minimum fare bucket, but this rule changed a few years back. I must say, I have only ever purchased the cheapest fare since then. And every upgrade has come through for me.

EVIP's (now known as SWU's) are allocated only to elites as a rule. If you're qualifying for EXP, I don't think 8 SWU's is necessarily a bad thing.

The fact that you can use them on up to three segments on one PNR is a boon. But look at AA's domestic F; it's not a patch on QF's domestic J (and AA's long-haul J is nowhere near as good as QF's). Still, it's better than the alternative (coach).

 

[drewbles]

Re: A dumb rule

Surely the point of this discussion is that if QF allow upgrades of domestic Red E fares (for a higher number of points than a Y fare) then why not follow the same practice on QF international flights.

Whilst it is impossible to upgrade a QF international 'S' econ ticket and usually impossible to upgrade an 'O' ticket (outside of promos) it is possible to a least request an upgrade any QF domestic discount econonmy ticket, even if disappointment often awaits.

If it is the same yield management module at work for QF International and Domestic then why the difference?

Domestic is a totally different beast to international.

The frequency of flights and number of seats, coupled with strict yield management, means that the U buckets are actually very small in general (and Classic Awards come out of the same bucket as confirmed upgrades do for DOM).

You may have a total of say 150 J seats on SYD-LAX each day, and 1500 J seats on SYD-MEL. Obviously they're just random numbers and not necessarily representative of actual seat availability, but you get the idea. If there was an 'every 30 minute' flight from SYD-LAX, the upgrade system would obviously be different.

 

[drewbles]

Re: A dumb rule

I have to agree with the OP on this one. As long as upgrades on the deepest discount tickets are processed at the end of the queue, regardless of status, why not?

My educated guess is that the value of empty business class seats that could be upgraded via points outweighs that of people that purchase more expensive Y tickets just because they're potentially upgradeable.

It's a pure example of lose-lose.

How many NB FF's do you know, that buy the minimum fare bucket for an upgrade, who have actually had upgrades clear?

I'd warrant a guess that with the number of CL/WP1/WP/SG/PS's in front of them, there's very seldom a situation that would see all the other upgrade requests clear, and then leave those on the cheapest purchased fare with an available seat to upgrade.

QF don't want points on their balance sheet, and want to maximise revenue. I think how they have it now works for their balance sheet. It's definitely not lose-lose.

Say in your case you had a red-e deal. You'd be behind

- CL that had a flexi
- WP1 that had a flexi
- WP that had a flexi
- SG that had a flexi
- PS that had a flexi
- NB that had a flexi
- CL that had a non-flexi
- WP1 that had a non-flexi
- WP that had a non-flexi
- SG that had a non-flexi

Sure, there may be a tiny percentage of situations where that would work, but I would hazard a guess to say it would not get to that level very often on international.

 

[Edge]

Re: A dumb rule

How many NB FF's do you know, that buy the minimum fare bucket for an upgrade, who have actually had upgrades clear?

I'd warrant a guess that with the number of CL/WP1/WP/SG/PS's in front of them, there's very seldom a situation that would see all the other upgrade requests clear, and then leave those on the cheapest purchased fare with an available seat to upgrade.

QF don't want points on their balance sheet, and want to maximise revenue. I think how they have it now works for their balance sheet. It's definitely not lose-lose.

Say in your case you had a red-e deal. You'd be behind

- CL that had a flexi
- WP1 that had a flexi
- WP that had a flexi
- SG that had a flexi
- PS that had a flexi
- NB that had a flexi
- CL that had a non-flexi
- WP1 that had a non-flexi
- WP that had a non-flexi
- SG that had a non-flexi

Sure, there may be a tiny percentage of situations where that would work, but I would hazard a guess to say it would not get to that level very often on international.

If it's so unlikely to happen, then why not just allow it? On the odd occasion that it does happen then Qantas is getting additional revenue (whether it be in $ or points, it's still maximising the yield of every plane that departs. This is what doesn't make sense to me.

In the last 2 months I've done MEL-LAX-MEL and MEL-LHR-MEL. The LAX trip was part of a group booking which was able to be "split out" and an upgrade then be requested. Because it was booked as a group I'm guessing the fares paid were very low. Upgrades for myself and SWMBO were confirmed at about T-12, benefit to Qantas: 144k points burned. Flight back from LAX, upgrades were requested but unsuccessful. But at least I was able to request it. Both flights on the way there / way back were packed in every class.

Flight to LHR was absolutely empty in Y. I don't know about F,J or PE but I would be surprised if they were all totally full. The flight could've yielded more if I was able to put in an upgrade request, but I wasn't even able to. This is why I describe it as lose-lose.

 

[mannej]

Why don't they allow it? Because you will have less people buying the more expensive upgradeable fares. I am sure QF have done the sums and are happy.

At least the system is slightly more open compared to VA where you need a certain status before you can even think about upgrading an international fare.

 

[serfty]

Re: A dumb rule

To be clear, the pecking order may or may not be fare class related (fully or partially) - assuming it is or makes a significant component then, all else being equal, I have revised the order to what it would be:

...
Say in your case you had a red-e deal. You'd be behind

- CL that had a flexi
- CL that had a non-flexi
- WP1 that had a flexi
- WP1 that had a non-flexi
- WP that had a flexi
- WP that had a non-flexi
- SG that had a flexi
- SG that had a non-flexi
- PS that had a flexi
- PS that had a non-flexi
- NB that had a flexi
- NB that had a non-flexi
....

To be clear

 

[Edge]

Why don't they allow it? Because you will have less people buying the more expensive upgradeable fares. I am sure QF have done the sums and are happy.

My guess is that it's only a small percentage of people who are purchasing these fare types specifically because they're upgradeable. They're people or businesses buying them because of flexibility. The people who do consider purchasing a flexible fare because it's upgradeable usually ask the question on a forum such as AFF and get told that it's still a big lottery, even without status, so just compromise and buy PE or fly J on a cheaper carrier.

 

[greenfish]

My guess is that it's only a small percentage of people who are purchasing these fare types specifically because they're upgradeable. They're people or businesses buying them because of flexibility. The people who do consider purchasing a flexible fare because it's upgradeable usually ask the question on a forum such as AFF and get told that it's still a big lottery, even without status, so just compromise and buy PE or fly J on a cheaper carrier.

Many employers have a no J policy - for example, where I work, I can't select J ever when booking online through our corporate agency. However I can choose any Y, providing I can justify the uplift from the BFOD (flexibility is one of the standard reasons). So of course I will book the type of Y fare that will give me the prospect of an upgrade.

I think this is very common across the corporate sector (my employer is one of the larger employers in Australia).

 

[bismarck]

Many employers have a no J policy - for example, where I work, I can't select J ever when booking online through our corporate agency. However I can choose any Y, providing I can justify the uplift from the BFOD (flexibility is one of the standard reasons). So of course I will book the type of Y fare that will give me the prospect of an upgrade.

I think this is very common across the corporate sector (my employer is one of the larger employers in Australia).

No J policy is quite common I think. Certainly my company is no J except for the Partners on domestic flights. J is OK for international or trans-con. Of course we are free to upgrade our own flights if we want.

I would necessarily say it was very common though. Plenty of friends at large corporates have BFOD policies (even for international).

 

[doctau]

No J policy is quite common I think. Certainly my company is no J except for the Partners on domestic flights. J is OK for international or trans-con. Of course we are free to upgrade our own flights if we want.

I would necessarily say it was very common though. Plenty of friends at large corporates have BFOD policies (even for international).

The few places I've worked where it's applicable have been the same, with my current company it's no J for most of us. My boss' boss' boss is allowed to fly J, but only if the total travel time is over 15 hours, and I don't think he often does because our department isn't part of sales so we get bugger all money.

To fly J with under 15 hours travel your title needs to be CxO

 

[Edge]

Many employers have a no J policy - for example, where I work, I can't select J ever when booking online through our corporate agency. However I can choose any Y, providing I can justify the uplift from the BFOD (flexibility is one of the standard reasons). So of course I will book the type of Y fare that will give me the prospect of an upgrade.

I think this is very common across the corporate sector (my employer is one of the larger employers in Australia).

I'd say most employers have a no J policy for domestic, but we're talking about international here. And I'm guessing you're choosing the Y fare based on (in order):

1) flexibility
2) increased SCs
3) upgradeability