A dumb rule [Restricted Economy ineligible for Int. Upgrades]

[pallmall]

Re: A dumb rule

Upgrades = finite number, on any flight
People wanting upgrades = probably more seats than there are available for available upgrades

Do the math. If they sell 20 seats in a higher fare bucket because 20 people want to upgrade, and they have say 8 seats available, they're going to get 20 x seats at a higher revenue margin than if they all bought the discount economy seat, *and* 8 x points deductions.

It's nothing but a win/win for QF. People wanting to upgrade have to pay to play the upgrade lottery. If they win the lottery, QF double wins (points and the extra revenue). If they lose, QF wins (extra seat revenue). Look at it from their view, not our wishes

Damn it - that does make sense - thanks

 

[markis10]

Re: A dumb rule

You are probably right and if they are all doing it there is obviously a reason that a simple citizen like me does not understand which is why I put this up - to see if anyone understood the logic because to me it is illogical. They will upgrade me if a pay more cash but to them FF points are equal to cash???? Que??

Its really very simple - yield management, getting the maximum $$ for each seat, while its true that frequent flyer points have both a margin to QFF and are a liability on the books, QFF makes a margin on earn as well as burn so the liability is less than apparent. If Qantas can get you to A: spend more cash to buy an upgradable bucket and B: then spend your points, its going to be a lot more attractive than just B!

 

[pallmall]

Re: A dumb rule

Can you please explain to me what the difference is. For what I can see it it is exactly the same. Without the points you wouldn't be able to request the upgrade would you?

Exactoy - without the points you would not be able to request the upgrade but that is obvious

 

[drewbles]

Re: A dumb rule

yes I have also had an email offer to upgrade from Red E before, some time ago, which is exactly my point. In fact I took advantage and got upgraded to find myself almost lonely in a J seat it was so empty. They obviously had a lot of empty seats in J and F for that flight and, being a business, thought it profitable to "sell" these seats rather then to fly half empty up the front. What I am suggesting is consistency which I understand is very rare with large companies - either selling plane seats or tins of paint

QF Yield Management is widely regarded as being amongst the best in the industry. They're going to know what they are doing when it comes to releasing premium seats for upgrades.

The main complaint several years ago was that people would put in a points upgrade, be denied at T-24, and then see empty seats on the flight they're taking. They tweaked this, to maximise QFF point burn, to be up until the flight actually closes. If you don't have your upgrade clear at T-7 days thru 24 hours, you may still be cleared at the gate.

QF are minimising their points liability and maximising their revenue.

U is only relevant for domestic. Both redemptions and upgrades are cleared from U for dom flights, whereas international Classic Awards are in U.

When doing an ODU at the Qantas club for domestic, it will probably not come out of U. Many times i've requested one, and been told 'leave your BP and see us when you go'. U was 0 and J was 2-3. My upgrades came through, and the seat bucket depleted by 1.

Upgrades being 'standby' for international give the yield management folks a lot of room to move for upgrades, and still allow seats to be sold till the last possible moment.

 

[pallmall]

Re: A dumb rule

QF Yield Management is widely regarded as being amongst the best in the industry. They're going to know what they are doing when it comes to releasing premium seats for upgrades.

The main complaint several years ago was that people would put in a points upgrade, be denied at T-24, and then see empty seats on the flight they're taking. They tweaked this, to maximise QFF point burn, to be up until the flight actually closes. If you don't have your upgrade clear at T-7 days thru 24 hours, you may still be cleared at the gate.

QF are minimising their points liability and maximising their revenue.

U is only relevant for domestic. Both redemptions and upgrades are cleared from U for dom flights, whereas international Classic Awards are in U.

When doing an ODU at the Qantas club for domestic, it will probably not come out of U. Many times i've requested one, and been told 'leave your BP and see us when you go'. U was 0 and J was 2-3. My upgrades came through, and the seat bucket depleted by 1.

Upgrades being 'standby' for international give the yield management folks a lot of room to move for upgrades, and still allow seats to be sold till the last possible moment.

I am living in hope that if I ask at the First Lounge desk tomorrow after I have checked in they will see how many seats are free and maybe give me the upgrade - you never never know

 

[amaroo]

Re: A dumb rule

I've read many a post from players here that deliberately plan to fly on busy days with the cheapest tickets and decent status......almost guaranteeing an OpUp.

 

[markis10]

Re: A dumb rule

I've read many a post from players here that deliberately plan to fly on busy days with the cheapest tickets and decent status......almost guaranteeing an OpUp.

Love school holidays

 

[tuapekastar]

Re: A dumb rule

I have very few issues with QFF. This is one of them (and if, as claimed, it is common practice among other schemes - I wouldn't know - then I have issues with them as well). So there!

 

[drewbles]

Re: A dumb rule

I have very few issues with QFF. This is one of them (and if, as claimed, it is common practice among other schemes - I wouldn't know - then I have issues with them as well). So there!

At least you're not discriminating in your hate

 

[tuapekastar]

Re: A dumb rule

At least you're not discriminating in your hate

Equal opportunity! That's me.

Seriously, I acknowledge the reasons put forward as to why QF does it, but I still don't like it.

 

[serfty]

Re: A dumb rule

Other than what has been posted, keep you eye out for regular "upgrade" promotions where they can indeed be requested from "red e-deal" classes.

This one was in June: http://www.australianfrequentflyer....rogram/promo-ended-deep-discount-y-51385.html

I did put one in for a SIN-SYD .br fare (O class) later this month but I am going to cancel as aircraft downgraded to 332 and aside from that there's precious little time to sleep on these flights anyway. (That and the 'Cafe' breakfast :evil

 

[sweens]

Re: A dumb rule

Equal opportunity! That's me.

Seriously, I acknowledge the reasons put forward as to why QF does it, but I still don't like it.

I too understand that QF are very good at yield management but...I do see it as a lose lose when I, a very heavy user of the QF brand, want to spend some of my QF points to upgrade, J is only half full and I cannot get QF to buy the points...it does leave a bit of a sour taste in the mouth!

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Re: A dumb rule

I am flying to LA with the family tomorrow and bought Red E tickets because there are four of us. Fortunately because I am Platinum I could choose our seats early and so we are sitting at the back upstairs on the A380 - when I travel for work I fly PE or Business, enough for me to be a Platinum Frequent Flyer for the last four years which in turn means tons of FF points.

I could have handed Qantas over 300,000 points if they would have allowed me to move my family a few rows forward to Business - and what would it have cost them? Maybe four more Business Class meals? It would have been the most profitable meals they would have sold in a long time!!!!

If airlines did grant these last minute upgrades at the gate what about the major issue of not being seated together?

In your case as a family of four what would happen if you were told "we have four J seats available however they're not together"? Would you happily accept the vacant seats which may be 11J 16A 19F 20B or choose to remain in your assigned economy seats together?

I think doing these last minute upgrades would create a whole new set of problems with people travelling together then expecting to sit together in the higher cabin.

If you were another passenger who had booked a J award seat 353 days in advance or someone who had paid $6,000.00 pp + for a J ticket & carefully selected your seats 12AB in 'Emerald City' would you want to be asked to give up your coveted seats to a family who had paid $1,299.00 for an economy Red-e-Deal & used their points to upgrade?

If you've ever flown AA domestically where they simply do not let a flight depart with empty seats in a premium cabin, you often see the scenario of people who have been upgraded one way or another expecting fellow passengers to give up their chosen seat to accommodate their request.

I think it would cheapen the whole customer experience of J class if other premium passengers (who were already confirmed in J) were constantly asked to move seats, not to mention the time it would take to achieve this when the airlines (& passengers) want an on-time departure of the flight.

 

[harvyk]

Re: A dumb rule

If you were another passenger who had booked a J award seat 353 days in advance or someone who had paid $6,000.00 pp + for a J ticket & carefully selected your seats 12AB in 'Emerald City' would you want to be asked to give up your coveted seats to a family who had paid $1,299.00 for an economy Red-e-Deal & used their points to upgrade?

Then again every time I've traveled in J at no point in time has the discussion about how you where able to nab a seat at the pointy end ever come up, which in my mind is a good thing, last thing I want to do is say to someone who has just forked out $6,000 for the seat next to me is "well my seat only cost $700, gotta love OpUp's". So to be honest I would just assume that the family had always been in J and that for some reason they didn't do advance seat selection / the computer split them up for some reason.

 

[flychrisfly]

Re: A dumb rule

And if catering couldn't be arranged to satisfy the additional number of last minute premium pax - can you imagine the uproar!

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Re: A dumb rule

And if catering couldn't be arranged to satisfy the additional number of last minute premium pax - can you imagine the uproar!

Not as much as the uproar if some 5 year old receives a WP greeting, express arrival cards, special meal etc etc because the flight manifest has the name of a different pax against that seat number that the one ultimately sitting in it.

You can't have 'catering not assured' on a 15 hour flight. Pax would have to register ahead of time ie no later than the day before so the airline would know how many people have 'opted in' for an upgrade so the correct catering could be loaded onto the flight. I can't see any airline catering a J cabin full "just in case" people want to upgrade.

 

[rotor]

Re: A dumb rule

That paint analogy was hilarious, thank you!

I totally agree - Qantas must understand that many companies now only book the cheapest available fare. Who in their right mind books a flexi fare just so they have the opportunity to upgrade? is the catering really worth ~$400+?

OP hits the nail on the head - it costs very little more for the carrier to host an additional passenger in J so why not burn the points and reduce the liability?

That said, upgrades are overpriced anyway.

 

[mannej]

Re: A dumb rule

That paint analogy was hilarious, thank you!

I totally agree - Qantas must understand that many companies now only book the cheapest available fare. Who in their right mind books a flexi fare just so they have the opportunity to upgrade? is the catering really worth ~$400+?

OP hits the nail on the head - it costs very little more for the carrier to host an additional passenger in J so why not burn the points and reduce the liability?

That said, upgrades are overpriced anyway.

Domestically upgrades are a free for all fare wise, internationally not quite so.

Your point about booking flexis apply to VA as well. There are obviously enough who get tempted by the dangled carrot to join the lottery for QF not to change their ways.

 

[adrian]

Re: A dumb rule

Most other airlines indeed!

I can't think of many programmes (in fact, I'm struggling to name one at all - help?) that will allow upgrades on the lowest Economy bucket fares, using whatever instruments (unless you obvious change the tickets and pay the applicable fare difference, which is moot for all intents and purposes; or, somehow negotiate a cash "bribe" at check-in; or, operational upgrades).

I think the closest examples of allowable upgrades on the lowest fares could be Air New Zealand, where OneUp, Standby Upgrades and Recognition Upgrades can be applied to pretty much all fare types. OneUp is a bidding system, though (not a fixed price system - that's Standby Upgrades). Standby Upgrades can only be used to move up one class of service (i.e. on a Y/W/J operated flight, from Y to W and from W to J only, no Y to J upgrades), whilst in order to use Recognition Upgrades to upgrade from Y to J on an applicable flight, you must burn two of them.

AA allow you to use EVIP upgrades on any fare bucket. Previously there was a minimum fare bucket, but this rule changed a few years back. I must say, I have only ever purchased the cheapest fare since then. And every upgrade has come through for me.

 

[MH_fan]

Re: A dumb rule

In my case, with QF doing this, it is a lose situation for them with me. I'm quite happy to buy a ticket in a higher fare bucket in order to get an upgrade but I want that upgrade to be confirmed. I don't want to have to buy a more expensive ticket and hope that I might get an upgrade. So, with QF playing it this way, I will ONLY ever buy the lowest fare (and we're talking sale fares AND through .br) with them and go to a different airline (like MH), pay a higher fare and have a guaranteed upgrade by spending my points with them! Oh, look, MH won thanks to they way QF play their upgrade lottery game...