A dumb rule [Restricted Economy ineligible for Int. Upgrades]

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pallmall

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Feb 19, 2008
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I do not get it - no upgrades allowed if you have purchased a Red E Deal ticket! How stupid is that? To me, just plain bad business sense even though I do not have the inside info on why they have this stupid rule - other then they are pushing for people to buy higher priced Y seats

I understand that you need to prioritize upgrades so the more you pay, the higher your status, the better your opportunity is but at the same time, Qantas have millions of FF points on their books that surely they would love to burn off??? That being the case, why not make a Red E ticket upgradable but at the bottom of the ladder. In other words, on the day of the flight, even an hour before the flight closes, if there are seats available in PE or Business why not let anyone who has bought a ticket by any means use points to upgrade. The seat is there, the passenger is already occupying a seat in Y so what is the big deal - extra catering?

I am flying to LA with the family tomorrow and bought Red E tickets because there are four of us. Fortunately because I am Platinum I could choose our seats early and so we are sitting at the back upstairs on the A380 - when I travel for work I fly PE or Business, enough for me to be a Platinum Frequent Flyer for the last four years which in turn means tons of FF points. I could have handed Qantas over 300,000 points if they would have allowed me to move my family a few rows forward to Business - and what would it have cost them? Maybe four more Business Class meals? It would have been the most profitable meals they would have sold in a long time!!!!

Is it just me or is it one of the most stupid rules Qantas have? Has anyone ever had this situation and been upgraded at the club just before the flight shuts? I have just checked online and with 24 hours to the flight, I could still book 9 seats in Business and 5 seats in First - that tells me that they are far from full in those cabins and I am sure that most passengers who are trying for a points upgrade will have gotten them by now - I always do at least 24 hours ahead of flight time!!
 
Re: A dumb rule

I totally agree it is a lose lose rule...pretty dumb.

It would be very rare to get an upgrade at the lounge...the bottom line is QF want you to purchase a high level fare to be eligible for an upgrade...it is then a lottery.

If the J cabin has plenty of room I would think that a WP on a Red E Deal should be somewhere in the queue to be able to use their points for an upgrade...may be at the back of the queue but still be in with a chance.

Occasionally I have had an email offer to allow me to upgrade on a discounted fare but it is rare!
 
Re: A dumb rule

From QF's view, it's an absolutely brilliant rule. Remember, they're there to make cash, not grant upgrades to anyone who just wants one.

They enable upgrades on the more expensive fares, and then it's still a lottery. They guarantee higher revenue from people wanting to attempt an upgrade.

It's annoying for us as flyers, but if you're not a WP or above, your chances of getting an upgrade on the heaviest routes are pretty slim in general anyway.

And of course, if you have a tonne of points, i'd be looking at simply redeeming 280k and using the OW 'round the world' type fares, in J. Best value use of points IMHO.
 
Re: A dumb rule

I can understand this rule from QF's point of view as well. From my point of view it is a little annoying when you purchase a more expensive fare and put in for an upgrade and you miss out (and yet you got the upgrade on the red-e-deal a couple of days earlier).

That said, if I really want to guarantee flying J, I'll use points to purchase either a classic award or a JASA (can't afford to purchase J outright :( ), that way I'll not only get a J seat, but I'll get to pick the seat I want.
 
Re: A dumb rule

This never gets old and is applicable:

If airlines sold paint
Yes it's funny, but also not a valid comparison IMHO. You can't compare something that's clearly cyclical with its demand (holidays/peak business travel times etc) with something that doesn't really surge (and is a far less finite resource than a number of seats on y many aircraft that the airline owns).

Also, people don't buy paint and then want to change the purchase. They buy test pots of paint for a few bucks, and decide from that. They may buy more if they under estimated, but that would be about all.
 
Re: A dumb rule

Brilliant - sounds a lot like the TV show Yes Minister and is very applicable to Qantas and a guess most other airlines
 
Re: A dumb rule

From QF's view, it's an absolutely brilliant rule. Remember, they're there to make cash, not grant upgrades to anyone who just wants one.

They enable upgrades on the more expensive fares, and then it's still a lottery. They guarantee higher revenue from people wanting to attempt an upgrade.

It's annoying for us as flyers, but if you're not a WP or above, your chances of getting an upgrade on the heaviest routes are pretty slim in general anyway.

And of course, if you have a tonne of points, i'd be looking at simply redeeming 280k and using the OW 'round the world' type fares, in J. Best value use of points IMHO.
This is not a case of just granting an upgrade to anyone who just wants one - it is a case of somebody who has the points wanting to "buy" an upgrade. All airlines have their FF points on their books as a moneied value - do you really think you will get something for nothing?
 
Re: A dumb rule

This is not a case of just granting an upgrade to anyone who just wants one - it is a case of somebody who has the points wanting to "buy" an upgrade. All airlines have their FF points on their books as a moneied value - do you really think you will get something for nothing?
And do you really think QF, as a business, would allow upgrades from the cheapest fare bucket? QF are not the only airline doing this, in fact, many do.

If you ran a business, and could get away with what they do, wouldn't you? I'm not saying I like how they do it, far from it, but it is their business to run. If we don't like it, we can always move our business elsewhere.

(and no, I do not work for QF nor do I have any affiliation with the aviation industry).
 
Re: A dumb rule

I can understand this rule from QF's point of view as well. From my point of view it is a little annoying when you purchase a more expensive fare and put in for an upgrade and you miss out (and yet you got the upgrade on the red-e-deal a couple of days earlier).

That said, if I really want to guarantee flying J, I'll use points to purchase either a classic award or a JASA (can't afford to purchase J outright :( ), that way I'll not only get a J seat, but I'll get to pick the seat I want.
Really do not understand it from QF's point at all as FF points have a value to them and therefore the more they can get people to "spend" their points the better it is for them. And as I said, put a Red E deal way down the bottom of the list and only "sell" it at the last moment if there are seats available and nobody higher up the food chain wants them
 
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Re: A dumb rule

This is not a case of just granting an upgrade to anyone who just wants one - it is a case of somebody who has the points wanting to "buy" an upgrade. All airlines have their FF points on their books as a moneied value - do you really think you will get something for nothing?

It's also not just a case of there is a seat available in Business so they should allow a FF to purchase that seat with points. They need to have a seat available from a fare bucket which supports points purchases. It is much the same as I can purchase a eccon seat for $100 (red-e-deal), or I can purchase the same seat for $400 (full fare). I can only purchase that seat at $100 whilst there are seats available in the Red-E-Deal fare buckets. Once they are gone I can waive a $100 note in-front of QF all I like, they will not accept it because what they have left they want to sell for $400.

Well it's the same with upgrades, they allocate a certain number to the U (business seat purchasable on points) fare bucket, once they are gone the only way they will sell you a seat in business is if you pay the going rate for a J (full fare business) tickets.
 
Re: A dumb rule

This is not a case of just granting an upgrade to anyone who just wants one - it is a case of somebody who has the points wanting to "buy" an upgrade. All airlines have their FF points on their books as a moneied value - do you really think you will get something for nothing?

Can you please explain to me what the difference is. For what I can see it it is exactly the same. Without the points you wouldn't be able to request the upgrade would you?
 
Re: A dumb rule

I totally agree it is a lose lose rule...pretty dumb.

It would be very rare to get an upgrade at the lounge...the bottom line is QF want you to purchase a high level fare to be eligible for an upgrade...it is then a lottery.

If the J cabin has plenty of room I would think that a WP on a Red E Deal should be somewhere in the queue to be able to use their points for an upgrade...may be at the back of the queue but still be in with a chance.

Occasionally I have had an email offer to allow me to upgrade on a discounted fare but it is rare!
yes I have also had an email offer to upgrade from Red E before, some time ago, which is exactly my point. In fact I took advantage and got upgraded to find myself almost lonely in a J seat it was so empty. They obviously had a lot of empty seats in J and F for that flight and, being a business, thought it profitable to "sell" these seats rather then to fly half empty up the front. What I am suggesting is consistency which I understand is very rare with large companies - either selling plane seats or tins of paint:lol:
 
Re: A dumb rule

Brilliant - sounds a lot like the TV show Yes Minister and is very applicable to Qantas and a guess most other airlines

Most other airlines indeed!

I can't think of many programmes (in fact, I'm struggling to name one at all - help?) that will allow upgrades on the lowest Economy bucket fares, using whatever instruments (unless you obvious change the tickets and pay the applicable fare difference, which is moot for all intents and purposes; or, somehow negotiate a cash "bribe" at check-in; or, operational upgrades).

I think the closest examples of allowable upgrades on the lowest fares could be Air New Zealand, where OneUp, Standby Upgrades and Recognition Upgrades can be applied to pretty much all fare types. OneUp is a bidding system, though (not a fixed price system - that's Standby Upgrades). Standby Upgrades can only be used to move up one class of service (i.e. on a Y/W/J operated flight, from Y to W and from W to J only, no Y to J upgrades), whilst in order to use Recognition Upgrades to upgrade from Y to J on an applicable flight, you must burn two of them.
 
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Re: A dumb rule

Well actually, have you ever heard of an OpUp?

Sometimes you really do get something for nothing... :D
Yes, got one from Santiago to Sydney because Y was oversold and J had plenty of seats - they did not do it because they like me, they did it because they wanted my Y seat for a paying Y passenger and so it was a good business decision from them
 
Re: A dumb rule

Well it's the same with upgrades, they allocate a certain number to the U (business seat purchasable on points) fare bucket, once they are gone the only way they will sell you a seat in business is if you pay the going rate for a J (full fare business) tickets.[/QUOTE]

The point here is that there are normally zero U seats available for an upgrade if you have bought a discounted Y fare...I believe a win win would be to make the available U seats to all fares but the discounted Y fares should be right at the back of the queue.
 
Re: A dumb rule

Most other airlines indeed!

I can't think of many programmes (in fact, I'm struggling to name one at all - help?) that will allow upgrades on the lowest Economy bucket fares, using whatever instruments (unless you obvious change the tickets and pay the applicable fare difference, which is moot for all intents and purposes; or, somehow negotiate a cash "bribe" at check-in; or, operational upgrades).
You are probably right and if they are all doing it there is obviously a reason that a simple citizen like me does not understand which is why I put this up - to see if anyone understood the logic because to me it is illogical. They will upgrade me if a pay more cash but to them FF points are equal to cash???? Que??
 
Re: A dumb rule

Really do not understand it from QF's point at all as FF points have a value to them and therefore the more they can get people to "spend" their points the better it is for them. And as I said, put a Red E deal way down the bottom of the list and only "sell" it at the last moment if there are seats available and nobody higher up the food chain wants them
Upgrades = finite number, on any flight
People wanting upgrades = probably more seats than there are available for available upgrades

Do the math. If they sell 20 seats in a higher fare bucket because 20 people want to upgrade, and they have say 8 seats available, they're going to get 20 x seats at a higher revenue margin than if they all bought the discount economy seat, *and* 8 x points deductions.

It's nothing but a win/win for QF. People wanting to upgrade have to pay to play the upgrade lottery. If they win the lottery, QF double wins (points and the extra revenue). If they lose, QF wins (extra seat revenue). Look at it from their view, not our wishes :)
 
Re: A dumb rule

Well it's the same with upgrades, they allocate a certain number to the U (business seat purchasable on points) fare bucket, once they are gone the only way they will sell you a seat in business is if you pay the going rate for a J (full fare business) tickets.

The point here is that there are normally zero U seats available for an upgrade if you have bought a discounted Y fare...I believe a win win would be to make the available U seats to all fares but the discounted Y fares should be right at the back of the queue.[/QUOTE] exactly what I said, make the most discounted Y fare the last possible options to upgrade - but make it an option rather then not take the points (read money) and fly with an empty J seat
 
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