Should business class be buyer beware?

[hydrabyss]

If the E190 was the only plane they had on a particular route than so be it.If you want business that is what is on offer.But having different planes for the same route all charging the same price for business the E190 offering is not good. Having flown from syd to mel in the A330 and 737-800 the E190 business class offered on my flight last weekend was miles apart. Maybe if I did not fly business in the 737 or A330 I would not know any better, but I do.

Maybe Virgin believe that 2 cough seats make one good one.I realise the A330 was over the top for a 1 hour flight but the 737 offering is miles ahead of the E190. Once the upgrades are done I may try it again.But till then will avoid it.

Had to laugh when they pulled the curtain accross to separate the business cabin(otherwise you may think your in economy or everyone else is also in business).Then the meals were prepared from the cart in the aisle next to us.To make it worse she had to use one foot to hold the cart as the wheel brakes werent working. Was surprised by this as my last E190 9 months ago they prepped from behind the curtain.Although it was interesting to see they had 2 of each meal for all 4 pax.

 

[JohnK]

Maybe Virgin believe that 2 cough seats make one good one.I realise the A330 was over the top for a 1 hour flight but the 737 offering is miles ahead of the E190. Once the upgrades are done I may try it again.But till then will avoid it.

And they will keep doing it as long as people are overpaying for the privilege of the poor business class offering. But it doesn't matter as it is someone else's money so it is all fine.

Had to laugh when they pulled the curtain accross to separate the business cabin(otherwise you may think your in economy or everyone else is also in business).

Did not even remotely look like happening on either flight.

 

[jetlagger]

Did you send off your gripes to VA John?

Interested in the response..

 

[Mal Ware]

Don't offer business class on services that do not have business class.

Jetstar international do it everyday.

 

[Fruitcake]

And they will keep doing it as long as people are overpaying for the privilege of the poor business class offering. But it doesn't matter as it is someone else's money so it is all fine.

Er, no, they won't keep doing it. They announced at the beginning of 2012 what they were going to do with E190 J and even released a pretty picture of what it would like when finished. They also gave a timeframe for the refit (second half of FY13) and, unlike a lot of their Lounge builds, it looks like they'll get it done on time. And they said that until FY13, they'll give you two of the former premium economy seats.

So no, it's not a case of "keep doing it as long as people are overpaying." They came up with a strategy and provided a public timeframe for implementation of it. If people (like me) are happy to deploy their points/cash/upgrades for the interim product, please let them. There are other airlines in Australia offering a better J class product on the same route for significantly more cash for those who prefer it.


The place where they did try to get away with something was business class on the 73G fleet. They listened to feedback, and stopped selling it. If feedback about the E190s was consistently as poor they probably would have done the same.

 

[serfty]

And they will keep doing it as long as people are overpaying for the privilege of the poor business class offering. But it doesn't matter as it is someone else's money so it is all fine.
....

Being aware is important - such change can happen with any airline.

I have a Business booking this weekend that was on a 73H, but was changed recently to an E190 - being on top of things, I noticed, called and without charge was moved to another 73H at a time that suited me.

Like everything, you are paying (somehow) for a service, it is up to the recipient of the service to ensure they are getting the service they believe they are paying for.

So yes, "Caveat Emptor" or "Buyer Beware" is a reality - even for airlines - and it's not just Virgin Australia one needs to be on their toe with.

 

[markis10]

One could also take ones own advice offered to others on a different subject and try it in this context :mrgreen:.

I don't understand why people are constantly whinging about this ..... If the offer was not suitable then move on.

 

[eastwest101]

The place where they did try to get away with something was business class on the 73G fleet. They listened to feedback, and stopped selling it. If feedback about the E190s was consistently as poor they probably would have done the same.

I agree with your comments about VA providing a timeframe and a solution to the old PE fitout on the E190's, at least the J fitout is underway now and will give VA credit for that, at the risk of becoming repetative and boring, we must remember that when the fitout is complete then VA will be able to sell 6 J class seats on its E190 services as opposed to 4 PE seats - this is actually an improvement in J capacity, a more consistent product, more potential revenue plus more J seats available for points upgrades.

The feedback from the 73G situation was quite vocal, but its our guess as to whether there was also a lot of negative feedback about the PE seating in the E190's, or, if there wasn't as much - then it may have been a combination of forewarned people simply avoiding the E190 PE cabin and booking 73H services. Maybe the smaller size of the E190 fleet representing less dissafected J pax. The 73G situation was problematic due to the large fleet size of 73G and 73H's at the time, and the common situation of an old config 73G subbing in place of a new config 73H.

Throughout the threads I have noticed a lot of comments from many different people about the woeful load factors in the J section of VA E190's (where they were selling J seats) despite the Y cabins often being full.

 

[markis10]

Throughout the threads I have noticed a lot of comments from many different people about the woeful load factors in the J section of VA E190's (where they were selling J seats) despite the Y cabins often being full.

Should also factor in the timing of that perception, often its weekend or leisure travel where its being observed, not surprisingly. Perceptions of the success based on observations are always going to be a poor indicator of reality, given the small sample size, the more recent load figures re yield and seat/passenger revenue kms since the introduction of J, indicate a northwards direction to bigger profits!

 

[RooFlyer]

One could also take ones own advice offered to others on a different subject and try it in this context :mrgreen:.

One could discuss the issue and not take pot shots at the OP. And the issuer is the quality of J product on Virgins E190, I suggest.

 

[mik01]

One could discuss the issue and not take pot shots at the OP. And the issuer is the quality of J product on Virgins E190, I suggest.

<...>

advertising a product, and taking someone's money for it, means you are legally bound to deliver that service.
if the product does not match the description or doesnt do what the business says it does, then the consumer is entitled to a refund or replacement.

it is not acceptable to assume all flyers need to know the configuration of each operating plane, in order to determine what Business Class product they will receive - in this case, none at all.

some people here are simply nasty for the sake of it - mods should be above this rubbish

 

[serfty]

One could discuss the issue and not take pot shots at the OP. And the issuer is the quality of J product on Virgins E190, I suggest.

The issue is actually "Should business class be buyer beware?" as per the OP's title.

My answer is yes ... see post #46.

 

[markis10]

One could discuss the issue and not take pot shots at the OP. And the issuer is the quality of J product on Virgins E190, I suggest.

Was not meant to be a pot shot as such and I apologize if its read as one, just pointing out the different values people place on things that have the same outlay $$$ wise (which is the case in the linked thread the quote was from), in both cases nothing is being delivered that differs from what is being advertised.

The issue is actually "Should business class be buyer beware?" as per the OP's title.

My answer is yes ... see post #46.

And I agree, as you many point out its not something unique to a particular airline.

 

[oz_mark]

advertising a product, and taking someone's money for it, means you are legally bound to deliver that service.
if the product does not match the description or doesnt do what the business says it does, then the consumer is entitled to a refund or replacement.

That may be the case, but 'Business Class' is a marketing label, and not a product description. To find the product description you need to get passed the label!

 

[Fruitcake]

advertising a product, and taking someone's money for it, means you are legally bound to deliver that service.
if the product does not match the description or doesnt do what the business says it does, then the consumer is entitled to a refund or replacement.

it is not acceptable to assume all flyers need to know the configuration of each operating plane, in order to determine what Business Class product they will receive - in this case, none at all.

So your argument is that a business should deliver the product as described, but that you have no responsibility to read the description?

 

[anat0l]

That may be the case, but 'Business Class' is a marketing label, and not a product description. To find the product description you need to get past the label!

That's exactly what Jetstar are relying on!


And to some degree, that's also what many European shorthaul operations also rely on. (For the uninformed, most European carriers' intra-European operations have "Business class" as standard Economy seating with a seat blocked next to them, and 'better food', more FF points etc. etc.)

 

[eastwest101]

I just had a look at the official VA business class product - which is pretty clear about what you get in A330 vs B737 vs E190 here:

Virgin Australia's Business Class | Virgin Australia

The QF official business class website is - how shall we say it - a bit "aspirational"?

Domestic Business Class | Qantas

And from what I can see here - looking at the respective Lufthansa and the British Airways official site descriptions of J class - you eventually get to see the actual products (seats & maps) through the following links (although not the seat pitch measurements that you do get in VA's page).

Lufthansa ® - Business Class
British Airways - Travel classes

 

[JohnK]

One could also take ones own advice offered to others on a different subject and try it in this context :mrgreen:.

Now Mark I do not understand the relevance.

The advice I offered was regarding people whinging about getting something back for doing absolutely nothing.

I paid my hard earned money and used up an upgrade to sample a rubbish product....

 

[markis10]

Now Mark I do not understand the relevance.

The advice I offered was regarding people whinging about getting something back for doing absolutely nothing.

I paid my hard earned money and used up an upgrade to sample a rubbish product....

Not quite true John, they had to spend $300+, an amount not too different to what you spent, with both discussions centered on what value was obtained from the expenditure, be it seating or gift cards!

 

[medhead]

Louis Vuitton sell $20k handbags. Are they really worth $20k a piece? Not last time I looked. They are a cache item that just make the brand look exclusive, Louis Vuitton makes most of it's money selling it's 'economy items' to wannabe's....scarves, wallets, cheaper bags, shoes. The appeal of the brand however rests on the $20k handbags and luggage items because no-one would want their wallets if they weren't known for the more expensive things.

I've just consulted with SWMBO and this isn't exactly correct. If we only brought things because they were worth the money the world, and my bank balance, would be very different.

I also think people buy a wallet because they want a wallet an there are no $20k wallets. I've looked at LV wallets not because of the expensive handbag but because I need a wallet. The other thing to consider is those expensive handbags don't even come in the classic LV print patterns. So it is a bit hard to see a connection to the cheaper easily identified LV products. Finally, of course LV started as a luggage company, handbags are just a sideline. I'm sure we wouldn't say people buy handbags because the company has a reputation for making excellent trunks.


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