QF crew in J cabin - how appropriate?

[markis10]

And let's keep in mind that the internal QF account is not going to rake in the profits for Qantas.

I can understand that dead-heading crew also have rights but the customer always comes first.

I think a lot of people are missing the point, dead heading crew often are customers, they may be wearing the Qantas uniform but their ticket is paid for by a company external to Qantas in a lot of cases, for instance Cobham for many of the Qantaslink services, you often see them dead heading out of ADL ! Maybe the answer is for crew to not wear the uniform, in case they are mistaken for Qantas staff rather than the contractors many of them sadly are! Should staff who are on a cheap ticket paid for by their employer get different treatment to those on an award ticket or Op Up, we are going into territory I prefer to stay clear of! The number of true Qantas crew has been declining for a long time, lets keep that in mind.

 

[serfty]

It's about perceptions, rightly or wrongly.

I think a lot of people are missing the point, ...

It really is not a good look for Qantas staff in uniform to get preferential treatment over that of other customers when on Qantas flights.

Certainly it's poor advertising, and being so, from a commercial perspective, Qantas should not allow it.

This is irrespective of who paid for the ticket, or why the Staff member is travelling.

 

[nlagalle]

Now my question is this: is it really appropriate for crew to focus their attention on the non-op crew rather than the passengers? Is it appropriate to carry on work-related conversations within earshot of paying passengers?

I don't have an issue with Crew dead heading in J. I've sat next to several on occasion, one being a JQ pilot and the other was an FA who was being flown home (I think due to a death in the family - i didn't ask, I held the box of tissues for her).

But I do agree that PAX should take priority, and i haven't been there were it happens. I have also seen crew in Y before (notably in the emergency row, which I think is appropriate). In fact on one flight, some of the dead heading crew got up and helped out with the dinner service to speed things up. So I guess YMMV.

Nick

 

[haydensydney]

Re: It's about perceptions, rightly or wrongly.

It really is not a good look for Qantas staff in uniform to get preferential treatment over that of other customers when on Qantas flights.

Certainly it's poor advertising, and being so, from a commercial perspective, Qantas should not allow it.

This is irrespective of who paid for the ticket, or why the Staff member is travelling.

+1

I don't really have much to add, besides that if I were to see this behaviour I would mention it to the CSM in a hearbeat (particularly the salmon experience!)

 

[11sjw]

Am I right in reading 3 issues here

1. Staff travelling in J
2. Meals going to said staff first
3. The active crew chatting to the dead heading crew over doing their job or attending to other 'customers' needs

1. Don't think any have a problem with this. Perhaps they get allocated the rear rows and work forward, they or their respective comapnies pay a fraction of what we do so I don't think it would be an issue.

2. This is BS and seating the dead heading crew at the rear of J would hopefully prevent this. Not sure you can stop the active crew saving meals for themselves, shouldn't happen but tough to stop.

3. Again very unprofessional if carried on for an extended period. For mine more than 5 min is too long.

All IMHO.

 

[Max Samuels]

Wow this has been a very interesting and enlightening discussion and it is good to see that I am not the only person that has noticed this and gotten annoyed by it.

So I took all the different opinions and comments and fed them through a supercomputer last night and it just spat out the answer:


1) Operating crew should all be robots
2) Dead-heading crew should be down in the cargo hold
3) Pax should all be given the maximum dose of valium so as to not even be able to eat, drink and therefore not need any kind of service.

 

[anat0l]

1) Operating crew should all be robots
2) Dead-heading crew should be down in the cargo hold
3) Pax should all be given the maximum dose of valium so as to not even be able to eat, drink and therefore not need any kind of service.

Well, that could work.

 

[JohnK]

1) Operating crew should all be robots
2) Dead-heading crew should be down in the cargo hold
3) Pax should all be given the maximum dose of valium so as to not even be able to eat, drink and therefore not need any kind of service.

Sounds good. Wake me up at the destination....

 

[harvyk]

2) Dead-heading crew should be down in the cargo hold

Your being kind giving them space in the cargo... I'd have said strapped to the wing, BYO harness... , of course don't mention this too loudly around Ryan Air, or O'Leary might just get idea's...

 

[docjames]

Wonder if aff member 737 is around and can tell us the protocols for deadheading crews?

 

[NYCguy]

Now my question is this: is it really appropriate for crew to focus their attention on the non-op crew rather than the passengers? Is it appropriate to carry on work-related conversations within earshot of paying passengers?

The exhibited behavior is entirely inappropriate on both counts. I agree that paying customers should always have priority over deadheading crews, whether they are contractors or not - if they're traveling in uniform, they should pretend to be invisible, at the back of the cabin.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Dead-heading crew should be less noticeable, allow passengers first choice of premium seats (not like the recent story where a passenger was moved from premium economy bulkhead to middle seat further back so 2 dead-heading crew can sit next to each other) and also be served meals last.

Whether it's duty travel or leisure travel, QF tech crew or cabin crew or any other QF Staff should not ask revenue pax to move. Occasionally if it was a family with young children who are split up because they are onloaded from standby at the last minute this may happen.

Is that true?? Terrible. You know I had a similar thing happen to me last year. I was flying BNE-PER with my mum in Y. When we checked in online we chose the very last row, 2 seats together on the left (I think it was 56A/B

Anyway when we got on I noticed our seats were part of the 4 seats that get curtained off for crew rest. Ok, so you may want to sit down for this bit as this is where the story gets very uncomfortable.

While the plane is still boarding, a FA comes up to us and says "can i look at your boarding passes?" We show her. She checks and re-checks the seat number. She goes away. Then a few moments later another FA comes up to us and says "are you guys in the right seats?" Checks our BPs and then goes away.

So we sit there, and watch as the FAs discretely (at least they thought they were discreet) communicated with each other through various hand signals, trying to find alternative seating for us.

We are then approached by yet another FA, all smiley, who says "would you like to move to the back (middle) row? Plenty of room to stretch out." I replied: "no thanks we are happy here. I want a window."

She then rants about how we are in "their" seats and that we should never have been assigned them etc etc. That they need them for rest (on a 9am flight to Perth). So I said to her, "well if there is another pair of seats together with a window we are happy to move." And do you know what she said to us?She says "oh, is this your subtle way of asking to be moved to business class?"

What a nasty piece of work. Anyway they ended up moving a few single PAX so we could sit together just so that they could have their rest area for a 5hr domestic flight at 9am. Not even a thank you.

Then when we had moved, a FA came past us and we heard her calling out to another FA "did those pax get out of our seats yet?" I think she could be heard for about 20 rows. Not very good form in my opinion.

That's appalling! If you had a boarding pass for 54AB or 55AB then they are your seats not their seats plain and simple. I believe that in some cases when the flight is operated by a 767 with the 25/204 config that those seats may be taken out of inventory and reserved for crew rest. It may be a hangover from when that type of 767 is used on longer haul international flights, so when it flies shorter hops by comparison eg SYD/PER it's still blocked off.

I know that on domestic sectors operated by such aircraft if those seats are blocked out on the seat map they are not able to be selected by pax via OLCI or allocated to pax by airport staff as they are not counted as revenue seats.

The problem is that a lot of flight attendants then think this is then the norm for all other 767 flight's & it's their god given right to have them blocked for their use which it's not. On occasion if the flight is not full airport staff may block off these seats as a courtesy only on flights where these seats are revenue seats and thus available for pax, but it's not mandatory to do so.

In any case this should have been brought to the attention of the CSM who I suspect may have been totally unaware of what was going on down the back end of the bus. I have seen FA's asking airport staff about this before boarding only to be admonished by the CSM (who knew the rules) for asking & being told "it's only 4 hour flight for god's sake get over it."

If cabin crew have need any clarification on the policy they should refer to their crewing department.

 

[Leumas]

I think a lot of people are missing the point, dead heading crew often are customers, they may be wearing the Qantas uniform but their ticket is paid for by a company external to Qantas in a lot of cases, for instance Cobham for many of the Qantaslink services, you often see them dead heading out of ADL ! Maybe the answer is for crew to not wear the uniform, in case they are mistaken for Qantas staff rather than the contractors many of them sadly are! Should staff who are on a cheap ticket paid for by their employer get different treatment to those on an award ticket or Op Up, we are going into territory I prefer to stay clear of! The number of true Qantas crew has been declining for a long time, lets keep that in mind.

I think you're right in that if they're dead-heading, they shouldn't be wearing uniform. If they're in uniform, they're representing the company. They don't have to be working, but they're the face of QF, as far as I'm concerned. Their behavour as a direct impact on my impression of the company and them as individuals.

I don't care how Qantas and Cobham or the union deal with the accounting for the cost of the ticket.

FWIW, I don't object them to be seated in J or above. Regardless of which cabin class, I do think 'normal' fare-paying passengers should have first priority on everything, e.g., availability, seat choice, meal choice, etc.

To be fair, I've seen staff in Y, just as I've seen staff asking others to move so they can sit together (i.e., hardly ever). I've also seen dead-heading staff gossiping with on-duty staff. (Also hardly ever, given the large number of crew QF have, the odds of a dead-heading staff knowing the crew on duty probably isn't that high.) I've also seen dead-heading staff just moving other people's cabin luggage from J to Y without asking so they can fit theirs above their own seats. No one is perfect, it's up to you to stand up for your rights.

Most of the time, staff are squeezed into J and most of them are very discreet and either board very early (before the general public) or be the last to board. Just about all the time, meals are served to staff at the same time as others. Perhaps they never run out of choices on my flights...

 

[737]

Hello,

Haven't posted for a while, but just read through the 6 pages of comments

- In regards to the crew eating 'Salmon' in the galley. On Breakfast/Lunch/Dinners services, crew are provided with meals separate to those of the pax, but are the same menu as the pax meals. Crew are afforded a choice as well in regards to their meals and as our meals are cooked separately (as we do not eat until after pax service) then we are unable to supplement pax meals with crew meals (which would only happen on a voluntary basis anyway, as crew still need to be afforded their choice.

- With regards to crew paxing in J class... Yes, it is a part of our agreement, so we cannot change it in that regard. The reason crew may pax in uniform is that they might have to get straight off the aircraft, move to another one and join that flight. That is most often the case, or they have just come off another flight. There is no operationally feasible way for crew to pax in 'civvies' then change back into uniform and move onto their next flight.

- Meal choices: It all depends on the conditions on the day. As you are aware, operational and rebate staff may be spread around the cabin. As seats are allocated to crew 15 mins before departure, it is impossible to try and move all of them towards the back and paying pax to the front. Depending on the flight time/meal loadings, etc... It is up to the discretion of the CSM for the service flow. Moving back and forth switching between rows and passengers can take a long time, and on a short flight it may be more feasible to serve all passengers from front to back to ensure the service is completed in time. It is a difficult one, generally all crew will endeavour to ensure paying pax are served first, but logisitically it can sometimes be a nightmare. I cannot comment on particular instances as I was not there but I know I definitely try to ensure our passengers have a pleasant journey and if I am unable to deliver on that for whatever reason, I hope to be able to make up for it next time.

Hope all of that makes sense

737

 

[drron]

Although the staff may be distributed through the cabin and it is better to serve by rows,the paying pax could be asked their choice first-this happened to me on BA.I got served as if all the cabin were paying pax but my choice had been reserved.

 

[737]

Although the staff may be distributed through the cabin and it is better to serve by rows,the paying pax could be asked their choice first-this happened to me on BA.I got served as if all the cabin were paying pax but my choice had been reserved.

In all my time working in the J cabin, I have never had to serve an employee before a paying passenger if it meant that passenger was going to miss out on choice. I have only ever gone by rows if we were over-catered and there was no way that anyone would miss out on their choice.

I guess I am only trying to think of a reason why this would happen, on a short SYD-MEL, where the flight time is 50 mins, you have 30 passengers in J Class, it is impossible to try and determine everyone's order even before takeoff as there is so much preparation that needs to be done on the ground. I have been in situations where we have been unable to offer pre-takeoff juice and water because there just has not been enough time. It is crazy sometimes, however those situations are very rare I guess.

I would imagine there is more time for those in First Class on BA compared to Domestic J Class, especially on a short SYD-MEL

There isn't any excuse, but behind the scenes it can be quite crazy and we have to act like ducks sometimes... Above water all smooth, but underwater we are going like crazy. I do hope that future interactions in J Class for anyone on here are more than satisfactory.

 

[Leumas]

With regards to crew paxing in J class... Yes, it is a part of our agreement, so we cannot change it in that regard. The reason crew may pax in uniform is that they might have to get straight off the aircraft, move to another one and join that flight. That is most often the case, or they have just come off another flight. There is no operationally feasible way for crew to pax in 'civvies' then change back into uniform and move onto their next flight.

Of course you can change it, whether you WANT or WILLING to change is another stoy. Don't get me wrong, if I can get a clause in my contract to travel J, I'll too, and I'll try my best to enforce it as well.

With regards to uniform, I don't mind them wearing it. Like you said, it may not be possible not to wear it due to time constraints. However, it's not a good look when a 'normal' pax seems to have a worse experience due to a staff taking a preferred meal or an upgrade not being clear, for instance. As I said, when one's in uniform, the behaviour is a direct reflection on the company.

 

[anat0l]

With regards to uniform, I don't mind them wearing it. Like you said, it may not be possible not to wear it due to time constraints. However, it's not a good look when a 'normal' pax seems to have a worse experience due to a staff taking a preferred meal or an upgrade not being clear, for instance. As I said, when one's in uniform, the behaviour is a direct reflection on the company.

Definitely not good when staff are being preferentially treated before pax, w.r.t service or meals.

As for upgrades, I don't mind if crew sit in premium seats if it means that all the upgrade inventory has been exhausted already. Some people hate the policy of QF upgrades (i.e. just because there is space free doesn't mean you get the upgrade), so nothing will realistically make this right (because the system of simply upgrading someone just because space exists, I believe, is not a better alternative).

Wearing uniform is a direct reflection on the company but equally so there is no excuse for a staff member flying their airline to behave otherwise even if they are not in uniform and/or the trip is in no way connected to work.

 

[garyjohn951]

Hello,

Haven't posted for a while, but just read through the 6 pages of comments

- In regards to the crew eating 'Salmon' in the galley. On Breakfast/Lunch/Dinners services, crew are provided with meals separate to those of the pax, but are the same menu as the pax meals. Crew are afforded a choice as well in regards to their meals and as our meals are cooked separately (as we do not eat until after pax service) then we are unable to supplement pax meals with crew meals (which would only happen on a voluntary basis anyway, as crew still need to be afforded their choice.

- With regards to crew paxing in J class... Yes, it is a part of our agreement, so we cannot change it in that regard. The reason crew may pax in uniform is that they might have to get straight off the aircraft, move to another one and join that flight. That is most often the case, or they have just come off another flight. There is no operationally feasible way for crew to pax in 'civvies' then change back into uniform and move onto their next flight.

- Meal choices: It all depends on the conditions on the day. As you are aware, operational and rebate staff may be spread around the cabin. As seats are allocated to crew 15 mins before departure, it is impossible to try and move all of them towards the back and paying pax to the front. Depending on the flight time/meal loadings, etc... It is up to the discretion of the CSM for the service flow. Moving back and forth switching between rows and passengers can take a long time, and on a short flight it may be more feasible to serve all passengers from front to back to ensure the service is completed in time. It is a difficult one, generally all crew will endeavour to ensure paying pax are served first, but logisitically it can sometimes be a nightmare. I cannot comment on particular instances as I was not there but I know I definitely try to ensure our passengers have a pleasant journey and if I am unable to deliver on that for whatever reason, I hope to be able to make up for it next time.

Hope all of that makes sense

737

Last year on a SYD-MEL flight I was in 1D and QF Staffer next to me. When they came to serve the staffer indicated to the flight crew serving her to serve the rest of the PAX first, then give her the meal.
I was impressed.

 

[dajop]

Last year on a SYD-MEL flight I was in 1D and QF Staffer next to me. When they came to serve the staffer indicated to the flight crew serving her to serve the rest of the PAX first, then give her the meal.
I was impressed.

I've seen this happen too. Really leaves a good impression.