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Hydroxychloroquine - What Goes On?

trippin_the_rift

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<snip>

The studies do not cover zinc. There are trials in progress looking at this. I cannot comment as there is no hard evidence yet.

<snip>

Public monies should be invested into things that been shown to work, not squandered on dreams and hopes.

TM
It's HCQ + Az + Zinc (3 together) that these doctors are saying has 100% a success rate. Not HCQ by itself.

So while I'm not an expert like you in this field, I would assume that trials you referenced are 'funds being squandered' given they don't test for the very drugs that doctors are saying is a 'cure'.

It is not the media that is the problem, it is the anti-vaxer mindset. Refusing to accept the best evidence, instead choosing to believe it is part of a bigger conspiracy. There is no conspiracy. We are working feverishly for effective treatments and vaccines. HCQ was promising, but multiple rigorous trials have not reproduced those initial amazing observations.
The anti-vaxer mindset is absolutely critical to the world in the same way that a pro-vaxer mindset is critical to the world.
Without either - we'd all be dead one way or the other.

The same way in that there is no such thing as right or wrong - just varying perspective.
 

teammongo

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I read the often quoted NYU Grossman study "Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin plus zinc vs hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin alone: outcomes in hospitalized COVID-19 patients" by Carlucci. It is an interesting study, but falls into the same category as the previous study discussed. It is a retrospective observational study of 932 patients.

Remember an observational study is a quite a weak clinical tool, and should not guide therapy. It is easy to mistakenly link association to causation. As an example a well known association is that between ice cream consumption and murder. That is, the rates of violent crime and murder have been known to jump when ice cream sales do. But, presumably, buying ice cream doesn't turn you into a killer.. (caveat - yet to be thoroughly tested..)

They found "The addition of zinc sulfate did not impact the length of hospitalization, duration of ventilation, or ICU duration." And went on to state "After adjusting for the time at which zinc sulfate was added to our protocol, an increased frequency of being discharged home (OR 1.53, 95% CI 1.12-2.09) reduction in mortality or transfer to hospice remained significant (OR 0.449, 95% CI 0.271-0.744)." It is this line that is often quoted and mis-interpreted.

They "corrected" for the time when they introduced Zinc on admission to hospital - as they gave zinc initally after admission. On the surface this would seem reasonable, but suffers from the what is called "time dependant confounding". As treatment improves (from staff knowledge, equipment, other treatments like proning and steroids) one would expect the patients towards the end of the study to have better survival. So it is no surprise that the observed outcomes improve, and why a lot of time based observational trials are positive.

There was a trial released last night in the Annals of Internal Medicine from Minneapolis. It is a randomised double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of 491 pateints. Again it is a negative trial, but they did record whether the patient received zinc or vitamin C.
"Additional post hoc analyses showed that self-reported use of zinc or vitamin C in addition to hydroxychloroquine did not improve symptoms over use of hydroxychloroquine alone".
One would expect if Zn had a 100% cure rate, it would be observable in this trial.

My comments regarding public monies is for therapies - that is we should not be using HCQ generally, outside of that of a trial - quite simply because there has been multiple randomised controlled trials (RCTs) that have shown no effect. In fact, they ALL are negative.
I am not saying investigational drugs should not be studied, and in fact there is a RCT looking at HCQ+AZ+Zn being conducted in the states with a target of 2000 patients. The results are expected late in the year. If it is positive, I think you will find it in common use, but until that time there is not enough evidence to support its use.

My anti-vaxer comments are regarding the inability to accept multiple sources of congruent evidence, and relying on often disinformation and mis-interpreted evidence.
These studies are not my opinions - they are facts and evidence. I have placed the studies on this forum, so individuals can make their own minds based on facts and science, not opinions.
Opinions are just that, nothing more.

TM
 
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tgh

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Interesting piece in todays right wing rag , I will go find it.
Ivermectin + Doxycyline and something else as a Prophylactic/early treatment.
Just blew a $600 tub of compounded doxy on a horse.. it's not cheap stuff.
 

tgh

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Can't find it digitally anywhere..will keep looking ... the third substance is , of course , zinc.

This reads like a great Prophylactic treatment , what say the medico's ??


The promoter is The centre for Digestives diseases Prof. Thomas Borody (Crohnes cure )



 

Princess Fiona

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The anti-vaxer mindset is absolutely critical to the world in the same way that a pro-vaxer mindset is critical to the world.
Without either - we'd all be dead one way or the other.

The same way in that there is no such thing as right or wrong - just varying perspective.
The overwhelming scientific consensus is that Vaccines are safe and effective.
They are critical to the safety of us all.
 

codash1099

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The overwhelming scientific consensus is that Vaccines are safe and effective.
They are critical to the safety of us all.
Alas, scientific consensus carries little weight with such groups (and there are many of them).

As the old saying goes: "Do not confuse me with facts. My mind is already made up".
 

Isochronous

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In March most Western Governments were saying masks were unnecessary when the real reason was lack of adequate supply. Now they say the opposite despite masks being universal in Taiwan and HK from the beginning.

It is entirely possible that the same is being said about HCQ so that governments can accumulate stockpiles first.
 

teammongo

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Are you suggesting that the US, Spanish, Brazilian, UK, Tawainese governments are individually or in co-ordination publishing false results to so they can accumulate stockpiles of HCQ?

Wouldn't it make more sense to stockpile other things that actually work?

I would suggest very soon, there will a massive oversupply of HCQ.. and you can have all you want..

But then again what do I know..
 
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Princess Fiona

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In March most Western Governments were saying masks were unnecessary when the real reason was lack of adequate supply. Now they say the opposite despite masks being universal in Taiwan and HK from the beginning.

It is entirely possible that the same is being said about HCQ so that governments can accumulate stockpiles first.
Nope ....
 

andye

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The idea that the medical and research professions are deliberately suppressing a promising treatment suggest you've spent little time with such people.

Whether it's for humanitarian principles or just plain ambition, you wouldn't be able to hold them back from developing a truly effective treatment.

As an aside, anyone who claims a 100% effective treatment for something like Covid is unlikely to be a credible scientist
 

jenib

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When there is no benefit, all you get is the risks.
I agree with this statement.

I just recently came back to this discussion and still have a lot to read to understand all the new links provided. I will do this when I can get the energy and time after being fairly sure I contracted Covid19 in early Feb on a cruise ship before the tests were common and now seem to have debilitating fatigue (not depression or anxiety as I quite enjoy life when I have the energy).

I have been on Hydroxychloroquine for 12 months (initally 400 mg but then after 6 months 200 mg). It works for my arthritis pain at least. Flu swabs were negative. Pneumonia (at the time thought secondary to flu) diagnosed 5 days after returning from the cruise and treated with antibiotics :)
Given my experience (and recognising that it is only anecdotal), I don't think Hydroxychloroquine protected me from catching the virus. It may have helped to dampen my (generally) overactive immune system and kept me out of hospital and the ICU. It may have also meant I caught the virus when I otherwise would not have because my overactive immune system was dampened by the drug. (I have a history of a number of autoimmune diseases - all of which have been managed and I previously rarely got sick.)

I can say I have never felt so ill - or had such long lasting effects from an illness as this one.

I look forward to the scientists/medical professionals and epidemiologists working out what really works with proper studies.
 
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Isochronous

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The idea that the medical and research professions are deliberately suppressing a promising treatment suggest you've spent little time with such people.

Whether it's for humanitarian principles or just plain ambition, you wouldn't be able to hold them back from developing a truly effective treatment.

As an aside, anyone who claims a 100% effective treatment for something like Covid is unlikely to be a credible scientist
Then why did they change course on face masks?
 

Pushka

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I agree with this statement.

I just recently came back to this discussion and still have a lot to read to understand all the new links provided. I will do this when I can get the energy and time after being fairly sure I contracted Covid19 in early Feb on a cruise ship before the tests were common and now seem to have debilitating fatigue (not depression or anxiety as I quite enjoy life when I have the energy).

I have been on Hydroxychloroquine for 12 months (initally 400 mg but then after 6 months 200 mg). It works for my arthritis pain at least. Flu swabs were negative. Pneumonia (at the time thought secondary to flu) diagnosed 5 days after returning from the cruise and treated with antibiotics :)
Given my experience (and recognising that it is only anecdotal), I don't think Hydroxychloroquine protected me from catching the virus. It may have helped to dampen my (generally) overactive immune system and kept me out of hospital and the ICU. It may have also meant I caught the virus when I otherwise would not have because my overactive immune system was dampened by the drug. (I have a history of a number of autoimmune diseases - all of which have been managed and I previously rarely got sick.)

I can say I have never felt so ill - or had such long lasting effects from an illness as this one.

I look forward to the scientists/medical professionals and epidemiologists working out what really works with proper studies.
Is it possible, if you have auto immune illnesses that you have progressed to another systemic one that is possibly related to catching covid or independent? Maybe a med review (up dose to 400 mg) and a rheumy checkup and blood tests might be a good thing?
 

tgh

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This reads like a great Prophylactic treatment , what say the medico's

My question has been ignored by those qualified to have an opinion… disappointing….. 🥴
The originator is not insignificant in a professional sense….
 

teammongo

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Tgh, regarding primary prophylaxis (before you are exposed) we don’t know yet. There are multiple trials currently in-progress. Currently though it looks like Hcq is ineffective in secondary prophylaxis ( after your are exposed and before you have the “disease”). If there is role, that might be it, as we know in many disease processes that the effects of treatments are greatly reduced as the disease progresses.

TM
 
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Princess Fiona

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This reads like a great Prophylactic treatment , what say the medico's

My question has been ignored by those qualified to have an opinion… disappointing….. 🥴
The originator is not insignificant in a professional sense….
I tried to find his research on the drug combination but couldn’t, only articles where he is advocating it’s use and of course the Doherty info on In-vitro action on SARS-Cov-2
I found a very small trial in India but not much else and there are no trials on it included in the systematic review I linked above.
So in summary, I’m eager to find out more. Haven’t found anything that leads me to jump at prescribing it though.
 

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