How much is fair for a 7 hour delay?

[redwoodw]

Hello all,

Was recently on an extensively delayed QFi service (QF117). The A/C was on the inbound QF118 the previous day, so had a 4 hour turnaround time in SYD. The flight was originally delayed for 2 hours at ~1500 (from 1550 to 1750), citing engineering issue. At this point the CX flight departing around the same time won't take any pax anymore given the short timeframe. Further delay was announced at ~1650 and the departure time was pushed back to 1200 /+1 day by then. I was lucky enough to be transferred onto the redeye CX flight at night, but still arrived at my destination 7 hours late (plus the discomfort of being on a redeye in Y and landing at 0445). The delay certificate QF given out cities a "complex mechanical fault" as the cause of the delay, so the delay is definitely within QF's control.

What boggles my mind is how poorly QF has handled the delay. Had QF announced the delay earlier (they would've known whether it's fixable or not given they had a 4 hour turnaround), some pax could've been transferred onto CX100 flight departing at 1550. An alternative aircraft could've also been easily arranged given SYD is QF's base. OTOH, all the pax being transferred onto the night time CX flight had to return to landside to retrieve their bags and wait for CX check in to open for 2 hours in landside, a major inconvenience for the pax.
I've had a try at the QF social media team for compo for the extensive delay with no luck. So my question is this: How much is a fair ask for compo for a 7 hour delay?(Or is it fair to ask for compo?)

On a side note, I've brought some perishable goods with me on the flight, and despite having multiple ice bricks to chill the items, they didn't survive the 7 hour delay. Is it fair to claim compo from Qantas for this? TIA

TL;DR: QFi mechanical delay entirely within QF's control for 7 hours, day flight turned into redeye, is it fair to ask for compo/how much is a fair ask?

 

[JohnK]

even IF they did have a spare aircraft, they might have thought it was going to be a quick fix & it obviously wasn't. Airlines probbaly don't even look for a spare aircraft for delays under a few hours.

I've had quite a few experiences with domestic travel where Qantas and Virgin have swapped aircraft from one route to another during delays. It helps there are 3-4 or more 737s waiting to depart.

 

[ozfflyer]

I've had quite a few experiences with domestic travel where Qantas and Virgin have swapped aircraft from one route to another during delays. It helps there are 3-4 or more 737s waiting to depart.

yes that's easy on a busy route like BNE/SYD or SYD/MEL, when in peak hour flights go every 15-30 mins. Much harder on an international route once a day nonstop.

Back in the days of Ansett, know that their were many flights scheduled at 6am, 6.30am, 7am, 7.30am by both airlines etc. but some days, Ansett would operate 2 & Australian Airlines(Qantas) would operate other 2, rather than each sent out 4 flights 1/2 full.

Another example, was booked on a BNE/SYD/CHINA Ansett the whole way itinerary. The BNE/SYD flight was delayed as when they refueled with passengers on board the stairs got stuck & delay meant missing connection in SYD, so put on an Ansett Hong Kong flight, then put up at an airport hotel & next morning flown to China on China Eastern think it was. Extra costs for Ansett must have been huge.

 

[RB]

I think in situations such as outlined in the OP, life is very easy when you only consider yourself

 

[Himeno]

It would be easier to push customers on the 1010 departure onto the other 2 flights rather than swap aircraft out and then have later passengers get delayed who then can't get on any flights. Imagine if the 1700 flight ended up getting cancelled because they pushed the 1010 one out. All the passengers would then be delayed 17 hours rather than 4/7 hours.

Need to look at the bigger picture

Except in the example provided, the 3 flights are going to LAX, DFW and SIN/LHR. Might be able to move people from the LAX flight to DFW, but no one heading to the US from SYD is going to want to go via London.

 

[travellerqff]

I have heard Qantas staff say they take full responsibility for mechanical related delays and cancellations, but not weather related - but even then they’ve still looked after customers before in that case.

 

[ozfflyer]

I have heard Qantas staff say they take full responsibility for mechanical related delays and cancellations, but not weather related - but even then they’ve still looked after customers before in that case.

the worst thing is when get a Jetstar ticket using Qantas ff points & that Jetstar flight, the last of the night gets cancelled & they tell people to go home, when many don't live in the departure port, but rather the arrival port, while at the same time Qantas itself has 3-4 flights that night, on same route, with heaps of empty seats, probably enough for approx 180 from a Jetstar A320 if it was even full.

 

[juddles]

...... Looking at other airlines around the world, haven’t really heard of a delay for 19 hours due to a mechanical issue at its home base. ....

....I know how airlines operate.....

redwoodw, you haven't heard of any other airline on the planet having such delays??

I am assuming this is a windup as no serious person would make such a claim....

 

[ozfflyer]

redwoodw, you haven't heard of any other airline on the planet having such delays??

I am assuming this is a windup as no serious person would make such a claim....

Qantas had a 48 hour delay at BNE about 10 years back I think it was, on 747-400 flight to LAX. They had no back up aircraft & it was Xmas school holidays. Some passengers were put on other airlines, but they were mostly full being school holidays. It happens.

The media picked it up & ran with it for many days.

 

[juddles]

Qantas had a 48 hour delay at BNE about 10 years back I think it was, on 747-400 flight to LAX. They had no back up aircraft & it was Xmas school holidays. Some passengers were put on other airlines, but they were mostly full being school holidays. It happens.

The media picked it up & ran with it for many days.

On other airlines I have had many longer delays - Malaysian - 3 days in south africa, Aerolineas - 3 days in Buenos Aires, etc etc etc.

Sure, an airline could proactively prevent this, but they would have to position redundant aircraft and crews, and get pax to pay for this. No airline has ever managed this as we all buy on ticket cost

 

[Himeno]

Yep. No airline keeps spare aircraft sitting around doing nothing.
If an aircraft is on the ground somewhere, it is either getting ready for the next flight, undergoing some sort of maintenance or stuck at a port due to local regulations (such as curfews or slot requirements).

Depending on the port involved and the types of aircraft there, an airline can shift aircraft around to operate a different flight then planned, but that just shifts delays to a different part of the network.

 

[FrustratedQP]

They don’t make any money sitting on the ground.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

They don’t make any money sitting on the ground.

No - but they can save money (in Europe) when another plane goes out of service. It's a matter of calculating the amount of compensation, and how often, vs the cost of maybe having an older plane (that would otherwise have been retired) as a spare.

Although maybe in that situation it's not considered a 'spare' at all? (But a necessary contingency.)

 

[tdimdad]

If there was another aircraft available that wasn't undergoing scheduled maintenance, it would be getting ready for a flight departing later. Swapping out aircraft would allow the earlier flight to depart near on time with the hope they could fix the original aircraft in time for the later flight with the possibility of also delaying that 2nd flight.

I've been on such a flight from MEL. Our outbound got stuck at the gate due to engineering issues one evening. A little later an inbound aircraft arrived and was to stay overnight. Pretty quickly QF decided to switch the crew & passengers to that recently arrived plane and leave our original one in MEL for repairs, on presumption it'd be ready in the morning. Possible when you happen to have the capacity at hand and do a like-for-like swap, but something that would probably rather be an exception than a norm.
In the OP's case, perhaps there were passengers accommodated into the daytime CX flight. They'd go in the pecking order and OW Rubys would most likely not even hear about it (yes, been there, heard passengers from my delayed flights paged to join the queue for the next one out instead of waiting).

 

[serfty]

I think the EU has certain compensation for delays of 6+ hours. ...

For EU provions to apply, the flight must be operated ny an EU carrier (not in this case) or the flight must be scheduled depart from an EU member state (not in this case).

So EU compensation does not apply.

Irrespective to that there is no 6 hour mention in EU261 regulations.

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For what it may be worth, under EU 261/2004 there are specific requirements the airline must attend to in relation to passengers for flights over 3500Km when the delay is 4 hours or more.

These are meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to the waiting time and the offering free of charge two telephone calls, telex or fax messages, or e-mails.

Case law also has confirmed that if a delay is over 3 hours for non extraordinary circumstances such as 'mechanical' then 'cancellation' compensation is payable - for flights over 3500Km this is €600.

None of that applies here of course.

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[MEL_Traveller]

For EU provions to apply, the flight must be operated ny an EU carrier (not in this case) or the flight must be scheduled depart from an EU member state (not in this case).

So EU compensation does not apply.

For what is is worth, under EU 261/2004 there are specific requirements the airline must attend to in relation to passengers for flights over 3500Km when the delay is 4 hours or more.

These are meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to the waiting time and the offering free of charge two telephone calls, telex or fax messages, or e-mails.

Also, case law has confirmed that if a delay is over 3 hours for non extraordinary circumstances such as 'mechanical' then 'cancellation' compensation is payable - for flights over 3500Km this is €600.

None of that applies here.

@redwoodw if you suffered a loss due to seven hours delay, you may be able to claim from Qantas in a civil court despite what the Conditions of Carriage state. However, if you did initiate such proceedings, expect Qantas to really fight to avoid having to pay directly, lest a precedent be set. I have no doubt they would spend far more than you are asking in a effort to avoid having such a precedent set.

As you say, that doesn't apply to QF flights from AU, but I'm not sure JohnK was ever suggesting that (only that the law does exist in the EU).

And that's the issue - airlines here have almost zero incentive to look after their pax in cases of IRROPS. Those bound by status will suck it up in the FCL, content they will still get their DSCs. Economy pax may take another airline next time, but if you're slashing capacity by introducing 787s does that matter?

 

[redwoodw]

In the OP's case, perhaps there were passengers accommodated into the daytime CX flight. They'd go in the pecking order and OW Rubys would most likely not even hear about it (yes, been there, heard passengers from my delayed flights paged to join the queue for the next one out instead of waiting).

Quite confident that’s not the case as I was guested into the F lounge that day and my Plat friend wasn’t able to get onto that flight too, and the lounge host did mention CX’s not taking any pax due to the short timeframe

 

[serfty]

I'm not sure JohnK was ever suggesting that (only that the law does exist in the EU).

I was clarifying due to the incorrect mention of 6+ hours.

 

[redwoodw]

Perhaps the point here is the lack of proactiveness to reacommodate their pax on alternative flights to get them to their destinations quicker, and the lack of “service recovery”. The general feeling on the ground was the lack of willingness to help from the QF staff. Many pax I talked to ended up being delayed for 19 hours without the option to transfer to earlier flights or route through other places, when QF could’ve at least tried to transfer some pax onto the QF127 service next day.
And the other point was how QF has chosen to run their operations in such manner (reliability < max utilisation regardless). I’m not suggesting to have a spare of every type sitting around all day standing by, but rather surprised by how QF has such little padding in their fleet schedule that would not allow another plane to take over the flight in the 19 delayed hours.

I don’t really have the big picture here, perhaps more went on in the back but from a pax’s POV, this is what I felt.

Edit: admittedly this is also my first time dealing with such an extensive delay. So please be gentle

 

[theblank]

How much is a fair ask for compo for a 7 hour delay?(Or is it fair to ask for compo?)

>4 hour delays are payable by your travel insurance. So whatever you are askiing from the airline is obviously just cream on the top, and the Airlines know this.

Whats actually fair to ask for compensation, is what it cost you. If it cost you a sandwich and a coffee, then thats its fair to ask for.

 

[JohnK]

As you say, that doesn't apply to QF flights from AU, but I'm not sure JohnK was ever suggesting that (only that the law does exist in the EU).

I think we need something similar here and then QF/VA may reconsider stuffing people around without some sort of compensation.