How much is fair for a 7 hour delay?

[redwoodw]

Hello all,

Was recently on an extensively delayed QFi service (QF117). The A/C was on the inbound QF118 the previous day, so had a 4 hour turnaround time in SYD. The flight was originally delayed for 2 hours at ~1500 (from 1550 to 1750), citing engineering issue. At this point the CX flight departing around the same time won't take any pax anymore given the short timeframe. Further delay was announced at ~1650 and the departure time was pushed back to 1200 /+1 day by then. I was lucky enough to be transferred onto the redeye CX flight at night, but still arrived at my destination 7 hours late (plus the discomfort of being on a redeye in Y and landing at 0445). The delay certificate QF given out cities a "complex mechanical fault" as the cause of the delay, so the delay is definitely within QF's control.

What boggles my mind is how poorly QF has handled the delay. Had QF announced the delay earlier (they would've known whether it's fixable or not given they had a 4 hour turnaround), some pax could've been transferred onto CX100 flight departing at 1550. An alternative aircraft could've also been easily arranged given SYD is QF's base. OTOH, all the pax being transferred onto the night time CX flight had to return to landside to retrieve their bags and wait for CX check in to open for 2 hours in landside, a major inconvenience for the pax.
I've had a try at the QF social media team for compo for the extensive delay with no luck. So my question is this: How much is a fair ask for compo for a 7 hour delay?(Or is it fair to ask for compo?)

On a side note, I've brought some perishable goods with me on the flight, and despite having multiple ice bricks to chill the items, they didn't survive the 7 hour delay. Is it fair to claim compo from Qantas for this? TIA

TL;DR: QFi mechanical delay entirely within QF's control for 7 hours, day flight turned into redeye, is it fair to ask for compo/how much is a fair ask?

 

[jb747]

......
What boggles my mind is how poorly QF has handled the delay. Had QF announced the delay earlier (they would've known whether it's fixable or not given they had a 4 hour turnaround), some pax could've been transferred onto CX100 flight departing at 1550.

How can you say they would have known whether it was fixable or not. Sometimes it's easy to specify what a problem is, but at others, just like trying to find a rattle in a car, it's not. Sometimes they do the planned fix, only to find out that the issue is not what it first appeared. Aircraft aren't all that simple....

An alternative aircraft could've also been easily arranged given SYD is QF's base.

Presumably they have a number of aircraft and crew just sitting around waiting. Your assumption as to the ease is faulty.

 

[oz_mark]

What have Qantas supplied so far? (Meals, anything?)

 

[redwoodw]

How can you say they would have known whether it was fixable or not. Sometimes it's easy to specify what a problem is, but at others, just like trying to find a rattle in a car, it's not. Sometimes they do the planned fix, only to find out that the issue is not what it first appeared. Aircraft aren't all that simple....

From the info I was given, there was a faulty chamber on the aircraft. I’m not suggesting that they could’ve predicted the fix wouldn’t have worked, or the delay wouldn’t have happened, but rather their lack of proactiveness to protect their pax onto alternative flights when the delay is likely to happen.

Presumably they have a number of aircraft and crew just sitting around waiting. Your assumption as to the ease is faulty.

I know how airlines operate and how crews are only certified to operate a specific type of A/C. But then it’s really how down to Qantas choose to operate the airline. They could’ve chosen a more robust operation and have some spare resources on the ground in case of IRROPS rather than having such unreliable ops. In the end it’s really Qantas’ failure to get their pax to their destinations on time.

What have Qantas supplied so far? (Meals, anything?)

Nothing really other than a $30 food voucher that I had to chase up for the 2 hour landslide wait.

 

[jb747]

From the info I was given, there was a faulty chamber on the aircraft.

What is a faulty chamber? I don't know. Really.

I know how airlines operate and how crews are only certified to operate a specific type of A/C. But then it’s really how down to Qantas choose to operate the airline. They could’ve chosen a more robust operation and have some spare resources on the ground in case of IRROPS rather than having such unreliable ops.

Are you seriously suggesting multiple 'spare' aircraft just sitting around. You'll need something to cover for a 737, A330, 747, 787, 380. Robust like that simply does not happen. Aircraft that are sitting on the ground are almost always in the midst of some sort of maintenance, or already allocated to a flight.

 

[redwoodw]

What is a faulty chamber? I don't know. Really.



Are you seriously suggesting multiple 'spare' aircraft just sitting around. You'll need something to cover for a 737, A330, 747, 787, 380. Robust like that simply does not happen. Aircraft that are sitting on the ground are almost always in the midst of some sort of maintenance, or already allocated to a flight.

That’s really a fleet planning issue. Had they not have such a complex fleet, it would’ve been a much simpler task to have spare crew and A/C. QF could’ve subbed in a 332 vs a 333 in this instance too.
OTOH some scheduled maintenance couldve been defered within operational safety requirements. Looking at other airlines around the world, haven’t really heard of a delay for 19 hours due to a mechanical issue at its home base. QF really is working its 330 fleet too hard.

 

[oz_mark]

Nothing really other than a $30 food voucher that I had to chase up for the 2 hour landslide wait.

Which is pretty much what Qantas say they will give under their plan. Compensation and Refunds Policy | Qantas.
It would also be worthwhile perusing the ACCCs commentary on delayed flights
Flight delays & cancellations

Anything else will require to build a case about how much inconvenience it ultimately caused you.

 

[JohnK]

I think the EU has certain compensation for delays of 6+ hours.

We don't have similar in Australia but some points as compensation wouldn't be asking for too much.

 

[JRR]

What status do you have? If none then I’d be expecting nothing. If you are platinum or higher they may give you something in terms of voluntary “service recovery”.

Do you have travel insurance? If a 7 hour delay had a major impact (vs being an inconvenience) to you then suitable travel insurance would be a must.

In terms of a “faulty chamber” (also can’t inagine what you mean) and ease of fixing or swapping in an aircraft ... these things are rarely as simple as they seem. Also compared to some airlines qantas has quite a small number of widebodies sitting around to shuffle. Compared to eg BA at LHR a *lot* less and even BA can struggle.

 

[ozfflyer]

am sure they would offer you frequent flyer points rather than cash. FF pts cost the airline very little, but have a much higher perceived value.

 

[ozfflyer]

am sure they would offer you frequent flyer points rather than cash. FF pts cost the airline very little, but have a much higher perceived value.

 

[VHOEJ]

Most airlines dont have spare aircraft ready to go (most not flying are getting some work done) and taking another aircraft from somewhere could.have disrupted a lot more people. Not to mention crew, and all the other logistics in making a flight happen. It is not as easy as people think.

Yes the airline is probably running the 330s too hard but the same passengers are applauding it going onto DPS. You cant have everything

 

[jb747]

That’s really a fleet planning issue. Had they not have such a complex fleet, it would’ve been a much simpler task to have spare crew and A/C. QF could’ve subbed in a 332 vs a 333 in this instance too.

You would never be able to build a business case for having aircraft just sitting around as spares. And you'd need one at each major base too.

OTOH some scheduled maintenance couldve been defered within operational safety requirements. Looking at other airlines around the world, haven’t really heard of a delay for 19 hours due to a mechanical issue at its home base. QF really is working its 330 fleet too hard.

Perhaps. You have no idea what state any aircraft may have been in. Very possibly in another city. And then having disrupted the maintenance program, you'll just as likely end up down an aircraft as you try to catch up.

It is not as simple as people make out.

 

[Himeno]

If there was another aircraft available that wasn't undergoing scheduled maintenance, it would be getting ready for a flight departing later. Swapping out aircraft would allow the earlier flight to depart near on time with the hope they could fix the original aircraft in time for the later flight with the possibility of also delaying that 2nd flight.

eg, QF has 3 A380 flights in/out of SYD each day.
arriving at 0605, 0615 and 0735 and then departing at 1010, 1340 and 1700.
If they find something wrong with the aircraft for the 1010 departure, should they swap aircraft with the 1700 departure and hope it is fixed by then while possibly delaying 2 flights, or just delay the 1 flight?

 

[ozfflyer]

You would never be able to build a business case for having aircraft just sitting around as spares. And you'd need one at each major base too.



Perhaps. You have no idea what state any aircraft may have been in. Very possibly in another city. And then having disrupted the maintenance program, you'll just as likely end up down an aircraft as you try to catch up.

It is not as simple as people make out.

Alliance Airlines, probably Australia's 3rd or 4th biggest airline group (after Qantas group & Virgin group & possibly Rex), have or used to have plenty of spare aircraft sitting around ADL & BNE most weekends & Firdays, as most FIFO flights are Mon-Thu + they do need a backup aircraft if a FIFO aircraft goes unserviceable. Their business model works very well. They get old Fokker aircraft for almost nothing & maintain them well. Maybe now that they are doing lots of flights for Virgin & Qantas they have less aircraft, but think some are still sitting in Austria or just over the border in Brataslavia, where most or all of their heavy maintenance is now done.

 

[redwoodw]

What status do you have? If none then I’d be expecting nothing. If you are platinum or higher they may give you something in terms of voluntary “service recovery”.

Do you have travel insurance? If a 7 hour delay had a major impact (vs being an inconvenience) to you then suitable travel insurance would be a must.

In terms of a “faulty chamber” (also can’t inagine what you mean) and ease of fixing or swapping in an aircraft ... these things are rarely as simple as they seem. Also compared to some airlines qantas has quite a small number of widebodies sitting around to shuffle. Compared to eg BA at LHR a *lot* less and even BA can struggle.

Just OW Ruby really unfortunately. Travel Insurance didn't cover anything other than expenses up to $250. It's not really that much of a major impact, just in this unfortunate case, the trip was already short and it was a bummer how the delay has shortened it even further (plus the redeye meant I'm fatigued the next day).

You would never be able to build a business case for having aircraft just sitting around as spares. And you'd need one at each major base too.



Perhaps. You have no idea what state any aircraft may have been in. Very possibly in another city. And then having disrupted the maintenance program, you'll just as likely end up down an aircraft as you try to catch up.

It is not as simple as people make out.

They did have some 332 the EB series ones available on the ground. Not sure about crew, but yes I do understand how swapping an aircraft can disrupt more pax and their ops further. Either way, I'm mainly talking about how QF runs their operations poorly, not just a specific case. If you've looked at QF117's operational history for the past month or so and compare that with CX/VA on this particular route, you'll know why I'm saying so.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You would never be able to build a business case for having aircraft just sitting around as spares. And you'd need one at each major base too.

Perhaps not in the current regulatory environment in Australia. In Europe it's a different story... with EUR600 (AUD1000) per person for a delay of this length (double that if the compensation also applied for the pax returning on tat aircraft to Australia) you have an incentive to either reaccommodate pax or have other contingencies. I've read BA has 'spares' at Heathorw for for this reason.

 

[ozfflyer]

even IF they did have a spare aircraft, they might have thought it was going to be a quick fix & it obviously wasn't. Airlines probbaly don't even look for a spare aircraft for delays under a few hours.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

even IF they did have a spare aircraft, they might have thought it was going to be a quick fix & it obviously wasn't. Airlines probbaly don't even look for a spare aircraft for delays under a few hours.

Australian airlines may not look for spares. Not sure if the same applies in Europe. I know CX looks for spares (they poached our aircraft due to operate HKG-PVG and sent it to SFO instead!).

The issue is the perception that QF was only interested in its bottom line here. It seems they could have been proactive and reaccommodated some pax on the earlier CX flight.

 

[Aussiejosh]

If there was another aircraft available that wasn't undergoing scheduled maintenance, it would be getting ready for a flight departing later. Swapping out aircraft would allow the earlier flight to depart near on time with the hope they could fix the original aircraft in time for the later flight with the possibility of also delaying that 2nd flight.

eg, QF has 3 A380 flights in/out of SYD each day.
arriving at 0605, 0615 and 0735 and then departing at 1010, 1340 and 1700.
If they find something wrong with the aircraft for the 1010 departure, should they swap aircraft with the 1700 departure and hope it is fixed by then while possibly delaying 2 flights, or just delay the 1 flight?

It would be easier to push customers on the 1010 departure onto the other 2 flights rather than swap aircraft out and then have later passengers get delayed who then can't get on any flights. Imagine if the 1700 flight ended up getting cancelled because they pushed the 1010 one out. All the passengers would then be delayed 17 hours rather than 4/7 hours.

Need to look at the bigger picture