How much is fair for a 7 hour delay?

[redwoodw]

Hello all,

Was recently on an extensively delayed QFi service (QF117). The A/C was on the inbound QF118 the previous day, so had a 4 hour turnaround time in SYD. The flight was originally delayed for 2 hours at ~1500 (from 1550 to 1750), citing engineering issue. At this point the CX flight departing around the same time won't take any pax anymore given the short timeframe. Further delay was announced at ~1650 and the departure time was pushed back to 1200 /+1 day by then. I was lucky enough to be transferred onto the redeye CX flight at night, but still arrived at my destination 7 hours late (plus the discomfort of being on a redeye in Y and landing at 0445). The delay certificate QF given out cities a "complex mechanical fault" as the cause of the delay, so the delay is definitely within QF's control.

What boggles my mind is how poorly QF has handled the delay. Had QF announced the delay earlier (they would've known whether it's fixable or not given they had a 4 hour turnaround), some pax could've been transferred onto CX100 flight departing at 1550. An alternative aircraft could've also been easily arranged given SYD is QF's base. OTOH, all the pax being transferred onto the night time CX flight had to return to landside to retrieve their bags and wait for CX check in to open for 2 hours in landside, a major inconvenience for the pax.
I've had a try at the QF social media team for compo for the extensive delay with no luck. So my question is this: How much is a fair ask for compo for a 7 hour delay?(Or is it fair to ask for compo?)

On a side note, I've brought some perishable goods with me on the flight, and despite having multiple ice bricks to chill the items, they didn't survive the 7 hour delay. Is it fair to claim compo from Qantas for this? TIA

TL;DR: QFi mechanical delay entirely within QF's control for 7 hours, day flight turned into redeye, is it fair to ask for compo/how much is a fair ask?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Perhaps the point here is the lack of proactiveness to reacommodate their pax on alternative flights to get them to their destinations quicker, and the lack of “service recovery”. The general feeling on the ground was the lack of willingness to help from the QF staff.

I can relate to this. My flight SYD-MEL was delayed a couple years ago and QF refused to move passengers to alternative flights. Eventually they agreed but with one major exception... those with baggage were told this option was not available. I waited while three or four QF flights departed until eventually my delayed flight was ready to board.

QF couldn't be bothered to retrieve bags so I was inconvenienced (although I did spend the afternoon with one of the AFF moderators who happened to be in the lounge so it wasn't all bad )

 

[JohnK]

Whats actually fair to ask for compensation, is what it cost you. If it cost you a sandwich and a coffee, then thats its fair to ask for.

What happens when the delay costs a whole lot more such as wasting an annual leave day? And if not a local what about transport costs and accommodation costs.

Yes I know travel insurance may cover some of these but perhaps not all and there could be excess involved.

Airlines need to take some responsibility for their fleet.

 

[Nerdnotgeek]

Can check the travel insurance on your credit card also , mine shows...

7. Travel delay For reasonable additional meal and accommodation costs after a six hour delay, up to A$500 per person up to a maximum of A$1,100 for a family.

 

[harvyk]

A 7 hour delay? Excuse me but that's it?

Try having a 27 hour delay, and I'm positive many people here can attest to even longer.

In my case there was a fault with the plane, and their original fix didn't work, their plan B didn't work either, in the end they found another plane the next day and flew that up from Sydney to do our flight.

Despite everything you know what, I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air than in the air wishing I was on the ground (especially as it was a long haul over the pacific in my case).

If you need to be somewhere at a certain time you factor in the fact that sometimes "it" happens, and back in the bad old days of TA's, they used to know this and automatically factor it in for you.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Despite everything you know what, I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air than in the air wishing I was on the ground (especially as it was a long haul over the pacific in my case).

Not me!

I’d rather be in the air at the scheduled time and not needing to ‘wish’ anything (because the airline has provided a fully capable and operational aircraft at the time they said they would).

My view is that it shouldn’t be any concern of the passenger why an aircraft is ‘not available’. Exactly what EU261 recognises.

 

[theblank]

What happens when the delay costs a whole lot more such as wasting an annual leave day?

thats not a cost, its an inconvenience.

And if not a local what about transport costs and accommodation costs.

covered by travel insurance.

Airlines need to take some responsibility for their fleet.

they do, but they also have terms and conditions, take note of the line that refers to delays.

 

[harvyk]

Not me!

I’d rather be in the air at the scheduled time and not needing to ‘wish’ anything (because the airline has provided a fully capable and operational aircraft at the time they said they would).

My view is that it shouldn’t be any concern of the passenger why an aircraft is ‘not available’. Exactly what EU261 recognises.

and could you please point me towards this magical universe where large complex machines work 100% of the time without fault?

Personally I know that even very well maintained machines can fail, and I'd rather them do their checks properly, and feel free to not go rather than risk it.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

and could you please point me towards this magical universe where large complex machines work 100% of the time without fault?

Personally I know that even very well maintained machines can fail, and I'd rather them do their checks properly, and feel free to not go rather than risk it.

And EU261 strikes that balance. Incentive to airlines to get their passengers to their destination on time, and compensation to passengers for the inconvenience.

This is not a two way street unfortunately. If a passenger misses a flight there are hefty cancellation, no-show or change fees. But for Aussie airlines, little or nothing in the return direction.

 

[drron]

Boy there are some unreal expectations here.So your plat friend was told CX was not taking any extra due to the short time frame.not sure you can blame QF for that.
I have experienced significant delays on 3 occasions-twice on AA and once on US just after the takeover.I was only AA plat-OWS.First was flying DFW-LHR on a F award.Plane went tech.Now DFW is AA but I was rerouted to LHR via MIA still in F.AA did not have a spare 777 just waiting in DFW just for that possibility.I ended up 8 hours late into LHR.
Second occasion was flying NRT-DFW-JFK again on a F award.Ice storm in DFW so plane didn't make it to NRT.I was lucky as AA liked me and when I arrived at NRT had already been transferred to the NRT-ORD flight then on to LGA.4 others checking in at the F desk were told they could be put on a JAL flight in 12 hours time or fly tomorrow.My wait was 6 hours.

I might say what distinguished the AA response from stories re QF my Aadvantage account had several thousand miles added before I landed at destination without having to ask.

So there you go.A much larger airline at it's much larger base did not have a spare plane available and I was delayed by 8 hours.
Second point-may not be fair but status counts.

 

[Himeno]

and could you please point me towards this magical universe where large complex machines work 100% of the time without fault?

Airlines claimed that aircraft going unserviceable were unexpected and were therefore extraordinary and thus were not covered under EU261.
The court ruled that maintenance and technical issues were an expected and routine part of running an airline and were fully within the airlines control and thus were covered.
Most costs to the airline under EU261 don't start to kick in until the delay hits 2 hours, with it getting more expensive the longer the delay and/or distance of the flight.

 

[Himeno]

Boy there are some unreal expectations here.So your plat friend was told CX was not taking any extra due to the short time frame.not sure you can blame QF for that.
I have experienced significant delays on 3 occasions-twice on AA and once on US just after the takeover.I was only AA plat-OWS.First was flying DFW-LHR on a F award.Plane went tech.Now DFW is AA but I was rerouted to LHR via MIA still in F.AA did not have a spare 777 just waiting in DFW just for that possibility.I ended up 8 hours late into LHR.
Second occasion was flying NRT-DFW-JFK again on a F award.Ice storm in DFW so plane didn't make it to NRT.I was lucky as AA liked me and when I arrived at NRT had already been transferred to the NRT-ORD flight then on to LGA.4 others checking in at the F desk were told they could be put on a JAL flight in 12 hours time or fly tomorrow.My wait was 6 hours.

So there you go.A much larger airline at it's much larger base did not have a spare plane available and I was delayed by 8 hours.
Second point-may not be fair but status counts.

AA looked after me at HND in 2013 when I wasn't even flying AA out of Japan.
I was in Tokyo overnight between tickets (midpoint on DAS13 and start of DONE3). Typhoon Wipha had moved through that night. I was on the train the next morning to HND when the winds picked up again and the train stopped at a minor station mid way to HND. After some time, it became clear that the train wouldn't be moving again any time soon. So I went looking for a taxi. Being a minor station, there were not many taxis and a long line of people waiting for one.
I had spotted some other people on the same train who were also on the same flight out of HND (CX). I spotted them leaving the station as I headed back after confirming the long line was for taxis.
Together we found a local bus to the airport, but arrived just after CX had closed check in, but there were still agents at the desk.
CX rebooked me to JFK, but it was a 5 hour wait at HND and then onto their direct via YVR flight (rather then the non stops). Which meant I would then miss my side ticket JFK-BOS AA flight. The CX rebooking would mean I didn't need to spend the night at JFK, but meant I'd be in the CBP FIS at T7 while the BOS flight was boarding at T8.

At the time, AA still had the JFK-HND night flight and due to the typhoon it had been delayed, so they were still checking people in. After explaining the problem (they thought I was on AA to JFK to start with), AA happily rebooked the discount Y non changeable JFK-BOS ticket without charge.
Ended up with a 6 hour delay in BOS arrival.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

A much larger airline at it's much larger base did not have a spare plane available and I was delayed by 8 hours.

Accept the point, but that also brings into play the distinction between 'spare plane' and 'spare seats' - do you need the former if you have the latter? DFW might be a hub, but that also provides a measure of protection. If you can't fly non-stop DFW-LHR you can get there via at least half a dozen viable alternatives... RDU, New York, Boston, Philly etc etc.

QF is limited to SYD/MEL (and possibly BNE in J). And only one flight a day in some cases compared to 20 (or more?) on AA TATL.

I also find US airlines very willing to accommodate you on other airlines (even cross-alliance) in the event of IRROPS. Something which QF is quite slow to do (choosing to fly you on their services where possible).

 

[Himeno]

Something which QF is quite slow to do (choosing to fly you on their services where possible).

QF rebooking preference seems to be:
QF > JQ > EK > oneworld > anyone else.

 

[drron]

Accept the point, but that also brings into play the distinction between 'spare plane' and 'spare seats' - do you need the former if you have the latter? DFW might be a hub, but that also provides a measure of protection. If you can't fly non-stop DFW-LHR you can get there via at least half a dozen viable alternatives... RDU, New York, Boston, Philly etc etc.

QF is limited to SYD/MEL (and possibly BNE in J). And only one flight a day in some cases compared to 20 (or more?) on AA TATL.

I also find US airlines very willing to accommodate you on other airlines (even cross-alliance) in the event of IRROPS. Something which QF is quite slow to do (choosing to fly you on their services where possible).

The point was that even with these advantages I had delays of 6 and 8 hours.

 

[Mattg]

No - but they can save money (in Europe) when another plane goes out of service. It's a matter of calculating the amount of compensation, and how often, vs the cost of maybe having an older plane (that would otherwise have been retired) as a spare.

Although maybe in that situation it's not considered a 'spare' at all? (But a necessary contingency.)

I was just reading today that Lufthansa is creating a fleet of ~37 reserve aircraft for the coming European summer for exactly this reason. But this is in the context of the EU regulations and Lufthansa Group is also much larger than Qantas. I cannot see QF doing the same thing.

(Here's the link for anyone interested - you may want to run it through Google Translate: Kampf gegen Verspätungen: Lufthansa schafft sich eine kleine Reserveairline | aeroTELEGRAPH)

 

[juddles]

Technically an airline could exist that ensures "fat" so that unexpected delays can be quickly resolved by using stand-by aircraft. This concept exists in some other industries. But in the case of the airlines, this would require pax to fork out an extra 10 or 20 or more percent for the same ticket. The undeniable experience of modern airlines is that pax buy tickets on price alone, or at least price above pretty much everything else.

For Christ's sake, many pax do not even invest in travel insurance!!

No airline could survive being out there to have such standby aircraft or capacity. Sure, in the EU there is legislation that helps pax, but the cost of this is paid by someone - you guessed it! The pax! That "600 euros" for a flight cancellation is paid for by charging pax more - where on earth else would that money come from?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

No airline could survive being out there to have such standby aircraft or capacity. Sure, in the EU there is legislation that helps pax, but the cost of this is paid by someone - you guessed it! The pax! That "600 euros" for a flight cancellation is paid for by charging pax more - where on earth else would that money come from?

Smaller profits? Newer planes? Economies of scale?

I just don’t have any evidence - based on my travel needs - to suggest airfares in Europe are higher due to EU261 (or anything else). (Government taxes ex UK are a different issue.)

Personally I find airfares in europe much cheaper than Australia, not only in economy but ‘euro business’ (which i don’t actually mind). You can regularly get long haul fares for half the price we have them here... in business class, on top tier carriers.

 

[JohnK]

thats not a cost, its an inconvenience.

So you book a flight to come home and your flight is cancelled and the airline can't get you home for 2 days. That is both a cost and inconvenience. And airlines need to adequately compensate for the inconvenience.

 

[harvyk]

Airlines claimed that aircraft going unserviceable were unexpected and were therefore extraordinary and thus were not covered under EU261.
The court ruled that maintenance and technical issues were an expected and routine part of running an airline and were fully within the airlines control and thus were covered.
Most costs to the airline under EU261 don't start to kick in until the delay hits 2 hours, with it getting more expensive the longer the delay and/or distance of the flight.

I agree that airlines should not be let off the hook for things under their control, for example if they overbook and someone needs to be left behind the airline should be force to pay handsomely for that. They made the business decision to overbook, the pax should not wear that cost.

But I'm of the opinion that aircraft are big machines, and sometimes even with the best maintenance in the world, things sometimes just break. I'd rather be on an airline that feels free to create a delay to make sure their aircraft is fine to fly, than one that adopts the attitude of schedule over anything else, especially if there is an added stick of a fine.

Now in saying that I also feel that airlines should do all they can to help their pax in that situation, including re-booking people on other suitable services, even if that means moving someone onto another carrier, and of course provide people with reasonable accommodation if the delay is going to go overnight.

As for pax running late (and thus claiming that pax are meant to stick to a schedule, but airlines don't), I do feel that there should be some give, and that pax should get a couple of free passes if for instance there is something unexpected which prevents them getting to the airport on time (such as heavier than expected traffic). That said, the schedule is known to pax, and I'm also of the opinion that it's up to pax to arrange their day so they get to the airport on time. If that doesn't work buy a flexi-ticket.

Of course, in saying all this, airlines really don't like to run behind schedule. It risks unhappy pax, planes being at wrong airports, staff running out of hours, and in some cases, curfews kicking in, so they already have a pretty big incentive to get it right.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But I'm of the opinion that aircraft are big machines, and sometimes even with the best maintenance in the world, things sometimes just break. I'd rather be on an airline that feels free to create a delay to make sure their aircraft is fine to fly, than one that adopts the attitude of schedule over anything else, especially if there is an added stick of a fine.

Is there any suggestion that European airlines compromise safety because of EU261?

No reason for it to be any different here in Australia.