Economy X [Domestic free for Platinum] - May 2017

[esseeeayeenn]

The 'opposition' are currently charging up to $2160 ow for a similar 737 J product on the same sector.... So your point is/was?

It's pretty awful that both VA and QF charge (almost exactly) the same fare for completely different J products in the A332 / B738 on any route but especially transcon.

 

[bam71]

Well well. Is this related to Economy X? and more money saving. Are Virgin in trouble.?
Just took business (FF upgrade)Perth to Darwin yesterday 3hr 40min. No tablets for viewing inflight entertainment anymore.
(I can't be bothered to have to get out and use my personal one so didnt bring it. only required in economy).
Hostie advised gone on May 8. Noteable also I was the only one in 8 seat business.
So for this intercity flight, Virgin didn't bother telling their business platinum passengers then. What do we get now for so much more money? a bigger seat (this isn't the 330) a breakfast and probably some booze on the afternoon flight. Only worth it on a points upgrade from Flex now.
This is very very inconvenient.
Did notice the economy X though. Row 3 seemed spacious and they seemed to have actually left a vacant seat in the middle on 3,4 & 5. But plane wasn't full.

No more onboard tablets in J? Damn - I like using their tablets, all IFE helps me decide what to binge watch at home. Thats a PITA if I have to load up mine .....

 

[Pleb Status]

It's pretty awful that both VA and QF charge (almost exactly) the same fare for completely different J products in the A332 / B738 on any route but especially transcon.

I agree with your more balanced comment.

Dragging this thread back on topic, YX starts next Sunday and I have a transcon VA 737 flight later that week. Currently on my flight, none of the middle seats in the YX zones have been preselected. Also, 3A is still showing as available, so the opening up of row 3 to the masses does not seem to have made much of a difference to row 3 availability at this stage.

Assuming the flight is not completely full, I look forward with interest to see how the remaining YX seats fill prior to departure. I cannot see anyone paying for 3E when both 3D and 3F are occupied so a shadow is almost certain if VA holds the line and does not let non WP select YX seats for free at some stage.

 

[Lemon_Party]

The 'opposition' are currently charging up to $2160 ow for a similar 737 J product on the same sector.... So your point is/was?

Yep - of course both options are equally outrageous in cost.

And I'd also agree it's hard to comprehend that the 332 and 738 are priced comparably.

But I've not flown QF J coast to coast and unsure if their 737 is an improvement on VA.

 

[DaleS]

I reckon it will get better for you. Not that many will pay thirty bucks extra for a seat and as per the previous post, your wife can be up there with you.

I tend to agree. As a semi regular flyer in Europe I always pay the extra for the upfront seats. Easyjet, Vueling, Germanwings & others all offer this and it just makes everything more comfortable and often gives you boarding privileges and other minor perks for maybe EUR10-25 more. But I think that's the key - most non-regular or budget flyers don't see that as value, it's just a more expensive seat and they're looking for the best deal possible. We still need to see how this works in practice and with 3 OOL-MEL flights in the next month I'll be able to see for myself.

 

[Dee#]

To jurahn
OMG!!!!
'Swapped out ' to a cough business offering coast to coast when you have booked 'the Business' and seat by the window. Hasn't happened to me YET!. I would be unimpressed and complaining all the way. Would have to seriously consider boarding at all, (deadline dependant) and tell them to 'Swap me on' to the next 'the Business' offering leaving/coming to Perth.

PS. Virgin picked me to do an online review of my flight.-Bad pick Virgin!!! (I'm platinum)
Also I have complained via their website. priority bags badly delayed too.

 

[Jurahn]

To jurahn
OMG!!!!
'Swapped out ' to a cough business offering coast to coast when you have booked 'the Business' and seat by the window. Hasn't happened to me YET!. I would be unimpressed and complaining all the way. Would have to seriously consider boarding at all, (deadline dependant) and tell them to 'Swap me on' to the next 'the Business' offering leaving/coming to Perth.

PS. Virgin picked me to do an online review of my flight.-Bad pick Virgin!!! (I'm platinum)
Also I have complained via their website. priority bags badly delayed too.

Yes, I was extremely unimpressed, especially as there was no notification at any stage of the change of aircraft. I found out about it ahead of time when I happened to check my itinerary, but unfortunately changing to another flight wasn't an option given other travel arrangements that were already in place. I lodged a complaint via the feedback page and part of the reply stated:

"It may assist for future bookings to contact our agents in the Guest Contact Centre who would be happy to advise which aircraft is allocated at the time of booking."

Er, I actually KNEW what aircraft was allocated at the time of booking and made it quite clear in my complaint that I had (a) booked the flights myself directly with VA and (b) had booked that flight specifically for The Business on the A330. Doesn't matter a damn what aircraft it is when you book if they're going to change it AFTER you book!! Then the reply continued:

"Where operational requirements necessitate that the original aircraft allocated to a particular route be replaced, we will do our utmost to contact our Business Class guests to advise them of the change as soon as possible, and offer alternatives."

Really? I know several other people this has happened to and none of us received any notification whatsoever of the aircraft change, despite it occurring weeks (and in my case, a couple of months) before the travel date. Mr Jurahn flew back from MEL yesterday - it was the 737 when he booked a month ago but apparently a lot of pax were complaining as they were expecting the A330, and the flight attendant said she'd had several passengers on other recent flights who'd refused to board because the planes had been swapped out.

 

[Dee#]

it was the 737 when he booked a month ago but apparently a lot of pax were complaining as they were expecting the A330, and the flight attendant said she'd had several passengers on other recent flights who'd refused to board because the planes had been swapped out.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this info. good to know people refuse to board. Give me more confidence to do the same. So much for looking after their business passengers.

Basically now 'the business' A330 is Virgin's business class offering. The other 2 seats together on 737 is premium economy and they have no right to call it business. Then there is economy and economy Xtra legroom which are correctly named. So 4 classes , except they try to pass their premium economy off as business.

 

[Jurahn]

Thanks for this info. good to know people refuse to board. Give me more confidence to do the same. So much for looking after their business passengers.

Basically now 'the business' A330 is Virgin's business class offering. The other 2 seats together on 737 is premium economy and they have no right to call it business. Then there is economy and economy Xtra legroom which are correctly named. So 4 classes , except they try to pass their premium economy off as business.

I'd be interested to hear what actually happens in the "refuse to board" scenario and what the outcome was, from anyone who's actually done it!

 

[R36snowbound]

Last year on a SYD to MEL trip, I was booked in J on the A330. Aircraft got swapped to a 737. Virgin contacted me the day before the flight, informed me about the change. They gave me a $250 travel voucher and a free upgrade for my next trip. They also kept me in J on the 737. I thought this was fair and reasonable considering the short flight time. Sounds like I was one of the lucky ones.

 

[oz_mark]

The other 2 seats together on 737 is premium economy and they have no right to call it business. Then there is economy and economy Xtra legroom which are correctly named. So 4 classes , except they try to pass their premium economy off as business.

Qantas call their equivalent product 'Business' as well....

 

[Pleb Status]

Qantas call their equivalent product 'Business' as well....

AA, DL and UA go one further and call their equivalent product 'First'.....

 

[Justchecking]

Yes, I was extremely unimpressed, especially as there was no notification at any stage of the change of aircraft. ..........a lot of pax were complaining as they were expecting the A330, and the flight attendant said she'd had several passengers on other recent flights who'd refused to board because the planes had been swapped out.

I'm not at all surprised by your experience nor the nonsensical response you got from VA. That is entirely typical of my VA experience overall and the way they handle things.

The trouble is, the J offering on the 330 was never intended as a domestic product, from the start those aircraft were intended to go somewhat further than PER. So they ended up with an international standard business product on six aircraft and really, that is the only J offering anyone is interested in experiencing at VA. It was bound to cause massive disappointment when the domestic J product (as installed on the 737) is up against the international product on the 330.

In my opinion, VA made a massive mistake by not putting a decent J product on their major fleet (737). There are proper shell style business seats for single aisle aircraft, they should have gone for these, installed them on the entire fleet (including the 330s) made their J consistent and only upgraded the 330 to an international standard business product when they finally launched international services on the 330.....7 years later. Why they were even running dual aisle aircraft for the past 7yrs is a bit of a mystery. Yes, yes everyone hates single aisle aircraft for long flights, but both VA and QF use 737s on those flights anyway. Would have been better off to just put a decent J seat on the 737 and made the experience tolerable on a single aisle aircraft.

It's a tough call to expect your FFs to be saving up their points and flying miles with you on the off chance they'll be able to redeem a J return on a 330 that only flies to PER and not get bumped last minute onto the far inferior domestic J product.

Back to the economy extra, really don't see this being much of a money spinner to be honest. The only people clued up enough about the xtra space there are FF's who will probably be entitled to those seats for free.

 

[Jack_OC]

Basically now 'the business' A330 is Virgin's business class offering. The other 2 seats together on 737 is premium economy and they have no right to call it business. Then there is economy and economy Xtra legroom which are correctly named. So 4 classes , except they try to pass their premium economy off as business.

As someone else mentioned, the VA 737 J product is pretty much on a par with the QF equivalent. Furthermore, both the VA and QF 737 J products are far superior to any domestic J (or domestic First in the US, or even short haul international J within Europe) that I have experienced with any other airline. I have a reasonable bit of experience in that regard - BA, LH, AF, LO, WX, DL, AA, UA, VX, AC, and probably others that I can't think of right now. I even once got stuck on an overnight flight with SQ from SIN to MEL in a J seat that was essentially the same as the QF 737 J seat due to an aircraft substitution, when I had booked their (at the time) class leading A380.

By all means complain about substitution of an A330 with a 737 without proper notice or compensation, but your argument that VA's 737 J product should not be called "Business" doesn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny when you compare it against equivalent products offered by other airlines. The fact is, every airline that I have flown with has a range of different seats/service levels within their Business Class offering. If you feel strongly that every variation within an airline's fleet/service level should be described as a different class of service, then fair enough, but VA is a very strange target to pick with this complaint, considering their J at least offers a significantly better hard and soft product to Y in all cases, which is not true of many other airlines.

I'm not at all surprised by your experience nor the nonsensical response you got from VA. That is entirely typical of my VA experience overall and the way they handle things.

In my opinion, VA made a massive mistake by not putting a decent J product on their major fleet (737). There are proper shell style business seats for single aisle aircraft, they should have gone for these, installed them on the entire fleet (including the 330s) made their J consistent and only upgraded the 330 to an international standard business product when they finally launched international services on the 330.....7 years later. Why they were even running dual aisle aircraft for the past 7yrs is a bit of a mystery. Yes, yes everyone hates single aisle aircraft for long flights, but both VA and QF use 737s on those flights anyway. Would have been better off to just put a decent J seat on the 737 and made the experience tolerable on a single aisle aircraft.

You want shell style J seats on their entire fleet? Seriously? VA's fleet mostly serves daytime flights that are 1-2 hours long. The Coast to Coast flights are an anomaly in domestic routes in Australia, so kitting out the entire fleet to cater for those routes would make no sense. To be honest, as awesome as the A330 J product is, I think it's unnecessary even on MEL-PER flights, except the redeyes - it's not as if you can (or necessarily want to) have a proper sleep on a 3.5-4 hour daytime flight. I agree the inconsistency has created a problem, but more because of the constant aircraft changes and how they handle them. They should have either (a) stuck to advertising the basic 737 J product, and treated getting an A330 as a bonus or (b) brought in a difference in pricing between the two products and then did their utmost to stick with the aircraft that people booked on, or provided compensation in the event of a change.

BTW - I agree with you about Economy X - I would be very surprised if many "average punters" would consider paying an extra $58 per person per round trip for this. Most people place far more importance on price than on comfort - hence the massive success of (literally) no frills airlines in the US and EU.

 

[PDog]

I too wonder who will pay the not insignificant extra for Econ X?

At the risk of derailing: looks like there's current a $100 differential between the 737 and 330 J SYD - PER. When booking a fare it's clear whether you are choosing 'business' or 'the business' and although virgin retain the right to sub a plane, are they really entitled to sub the product you've paid for? I get stuff happens, but the pax shouldn't have to wear the cost or discomfort

Jack3193- I haven't flown the 737 in J to Perth, but have to Bali and that is an uncomfortable seat for that length of time.

 

[Jack_OC]

I too wonder who will pay the not insignificant extra for Econ X?

At the risk of derailing: looks like there's current a $100 differential between the 737 and 330 J SYD - PER. When booking a fare it's clear whether you are choosing 'business' or 'the business' and although virgin retain the right to sub a plane, are they really entitled to sub the product you've paid for? I get stuff happens, but the pax shouldn't have to wear the cost or discomfort

Fully agree.

Jack3193- I haven't flown the 737 in J to Perth, but have to Bali and that is an uncomfortable seat for that length of time.

Yeah on a 6 hour flight I'd certainly prefer a better seat in J. Again though, this flight is an outlier in VA's network - even more so as it's a holiday route, with presumably little demand for a high end J product. Also, as a point of reference, I recently spent 2.5 hours followed almost immediately by another 5 hours in DL "First" seats similar to the VA 737 J seats, so again, this is not unique to VA.

I'm not saying people should be happy with whatever they get, my point is just that the labels "Business Class" and even "First Class" are not synonymous with lie flat seats, so there is nothing wrong with VA applying this term to their 737 J offering. What is wrong is them advertising the A330 product, charging more for it, convincing pax that's what they are getting at the time of booking, and then delivering something that comes nowhere near the same standard without providing compensation.

 

[Justchecking]

You want shell style J seats on their entire fleet? Seriously?

It's not so much I want, I could care less actually since I always fly Y anyway. But when looking at it from a competition point of view. VA went with 330's and an international level J product on coast to coast to compete with QF's then lie flat beds on their 330's, but in my opinion that wasn't necessary to compete with QF. They could have competed with QF, not by duplicating their offering, but by introducing a unique offering of their own. A better than QF domestic J class across the entire fleet. I don't even think lie flat beds is necessary on coast to coast, the PER-MEL sectors is under 4hrs, even the longest PER-BNE is only 6hrs. Sure have a recliner snooze but a turndown lie flat service for what 2hrs of the flight after a meal is silly. JetBlues Mint is not quite international standard business but it's a very good domestic product on single aisle aircraft and for the AU market would have been near revolutionary and certainly perfect for the long sector flying they do/did - PER, DPS, HKT, NAN, WLG. Not only that but it makes any J redemption on any route worth the points and maintaining the flying status. I don't even think VA needed to go lie flat at all. Deep recline with footrest would have been perfect as the previous 2 cabin incarnations of the J 330 prove. Leave the lie flat for sectors over 7hrs.

As to cost, well yes there is that. But I wonder if flying a small fleet of 6 330's across AU with an international J product for 7yrs was really any cheaper.

It's speculation about alternatives is all and what could have been in terms of innovation, rather than what we got which was duplication. Not exactly an expectation of mine, just a pondering.

Here's a nice review with pics of what I'm talking about. 2 rows of those would have made a lot of people very happy when flying on a 737. Even pleb-class using the forward toilet wouldn't have rankled so much when people could put their privacy screen up and not have someone's cough in their face.

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2016/08/03/jetblue-mint-review/

 

[Jack_OC]

It's not so much I want, I could care less actually since I always fly Y anyway. But when looking at it from a competition point of view. VA went with 330's and an international level J product on coast to coast to compete with QF's then lie flat beds on their 330's, but in my opinion that wasn't necessary to compete with QF. They could have competed with QF, not by duplicating their offering, but by introducing a unique offering of their own. A better than QF domestic J class across the entire fleet.

I see where you're coming from, but would VA attract J pax away from QF with a better seat on short flights? I'm really not sure that they would. I think QF has significant advantages over VA for this segment of the market - e.g. Business/First lounges, much better treatment of high status pax, contracts with large employers, much better international network (relevant as a fair few domestic J pax are connecting to international flights), etc. As it happens, I have been on a couple of QF A330s between MEL and SYD with the new international standard business suite. It was a bit of a novelty, but I can't say it was really of any value whatsoever over the standard J seat on that route.

I don't even think lie flat beds is necessary on coast to coast, the PER-MEL sectors is under 4hrs, even the longest PER-BNE is only 6hrs. Sure have a recliner snooze but a turndown lie flat service for what 2hrs of the flight after a meal is silly. JetBlues Mint is not quite international standard business but it's a very good domestic product on single aisle aircraft and for the AU market would have been near revolutionary and certainly perfect for the long sector flying they do/did - PER, DPS, HKT, NAN, WLG. Not only that but it makes any J redemption on any route worth the points and maintaining the flying status. I don't even think VA needed to go lie flat at all. Deep recline with footrest would have been perfect as the previous 2 cabin incarnations of the J 330 prove. Leave the lie flat for sectors over 7hrs.

I totally agree with all of that, but a JetBlue Mint-esque seat on the shorter routes would also make no sense IMHO. AFAIK, JetBlue themselves only have those seats on a small number of routes, all of which are at least 5 hrs+. So if you're saying VA should have gone with seats like this for the 4-7 hour flights only, I would agree, but introducing them on the entire fleet is a different story. It's not just the cost of installing the new seats - I'm pretty sure they would also have to reduce the total number of seats on the plane (and/or legroom in Y) in order to accommodate the new seats, so the cost/impact would be an ongoing one.

 

[Justchecking]

I think QF has significant advantages over VA for this segment of the market - e.g. Business/First lounges, much better treatment of high status pax, contracts with large employers, much better international network (relevant as a fair few domestic J pax are connecting to international flights), etc.

Exactly. VA were never going to take the hardcore QF business away no matter what. They were always going to cultivate their own little cult following but not put too much of a dent in the QF clientelle. Hence why I think the wide body and similar international product was introduced too soon to the airline. They would have done better to stick to their main fleet for longer and just upgraded the amenities on them, to give a true J experience domestically. I agree with perhaps not the entire fleet but a significant number of their narrow bodies were international configured and used on longer routes, so that kind of product up the front of those aircraft at least would have put them on a similar footing to where they are now.

It's not just the cost of installing the new seats - I'm pretty sure they would also have to reduce the total number of seats on the plane (and/or legroom in Y) in order to accommodate the new seats, so the cost/impact would be an ongoing one.

True. But their current 8 seat J configuration reduced the number of Y rows anyway (by about 4 rows I believe) and by all reports the J cabin is rarely full on the narrow body on the shorter routes anyway. They could have gone for two rows for 6/8 J seats, for a similar reduction in Y and not really lost much up front as it turns out. Keep in mind the JetBlue seat is fully lie flat with 50" of pitch. If you had a recliner then that amount of space between the seats would not be necessary.

I don't know how many international configured 737's they had but it would have been more than say 6, giving a wider margin for aircraft substitutions. As it happens, if HKG goes well it's likely we'll see the 330 less and less on the coast to coast leaving the domestic punters with no alternative but the 737 J product anyway and I dare say there will be a lot of people unhappy about that. Especially after being accustomed to an international product including spirit choices, wines, 3 course dinners and a suite. None of which is available on the 737. They've set a precedent now, which is going to cause a lot of annoyance with the vast drop in service level should international go well for them and take the 330 fleet offshore.

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think they would have done better to jazz up the value airline proposition with a clever upgrade choice, rather than tried to hit the premium market and missed. They would have won their fans for offering a very comfortable product at a good price and been compared to QF favourably. Rather than being seen as a poor mans QF.

 

[serfty]

...
VA went with 330's and an international level J product on coast to coast to compete with QF's then lie flat beds on their 330's, but in my opinion that wasn't necessary to compete with QF. They could have competed with QF, not by duplicating their offering, but by introducing a unique offering of their own. ...

Actually, aside from the odd 330 going cross country on positioning segments for the then getting rarer international PER flights Qantas had no lay flats in regular service across the continent.

Around the time QF had just introduced 2x3x2 with 38" pitch in business on brand new aircraft, so you can see what their intention was.

VA introducing coast to coast on lay flat with special menus was indeed a then unique offering.

Qantas hurriedly put a table over the middle seat and flew the odd soon to retire 747 soon after the ex EK 332's started flying in VA colours. They then set about improving their menus and later on began the steps to match VA with lay-flat as standard on these services.