ACCC slams loyalty schemes

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One thing that defies belief is that when booking an award flight in say J, it will happily deduct J points but if you miss that dreaded ! you may not realise that for a long haul trip the only J flight might be for a short haul connector flight and the long leg is in Y. Which goes under the Transparency header. If that isn’t misleading I don’t know what is!
 
One thing that defies belief is that when booking an award flight in say J, it will happily deduct J points but if you miss that dreaded ! you may not realise that for a long haul trip the only J flight might be for a short haul connector flight and the long leg is in Y. Which goes under the Transparency header. If that isn’t misleading I don’t know what is!

Does that really happen? Without disclosure?
 
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It does indeed - when you press accept it doesn't say - hey you do realise we've taken J points but you're only in Y for 14 hours and in J for 5 hours
I agree this needs a separate and obvious "are you sure" box. The excited infrequent redeemer deserves that level of protection.
......though I'm quite happy for strangers to buy toasters or Any Seats
 
One thing that defies belief is that when booking an award flight in say J, it will happily deduct J points but if you miss that dreaded ! you may not realise that for a long haul trip the only J flight might be for a short haul connector flight and the long leg is in Y. Which goes under the Transparency header. If that isn’t misleading I don’t know what is!
It does indeed - when you press accept it doesn't say - hey you do realise we've taken J points but you're only in Y for 14 hours and in J for 5 hours

Any examples of this?
Normally it prices as the sum of the components, i.e a J + y redemption.
 
I'm firmly of the belief having done so many Award searches next year that the Qantas website is designed so that people give up doing the various searches in utter frustration. A quick "modify search" - takes you back to a completely new start so you have to enter everything again. Just not selecting "Flexible Dates" means you have to go through the whole thing all over again. The fact that using Multi City gives you many more options for long distance to Europe should also not happen - as you always have to go via Singapore, Doha, Dubai, HK, KL and so on to get to Europe, then these results should also be given in the one search function eg Adelaide to Paris. And when you want to change an Award booking you are given very few options to change these bookings online yet you can find the exact same dates, and start and end points if doing a new booking.
 
I'm firmly of the belief having done so many Award searches next year that the Qantas website is designed so that people give up doing the various searches in utter frustration. A quick "modify search" - takes you back to a completely new start so you have to enter everything again. Just not selecting "Flexible Dates" means you have to go through the whole thing all over again. The fact that using Multi City gives you many more options for long distance to Europe should also not happen - as you always have to go via Singapore, Doha, Dubai, HK, KL and so on to get to Europe, then these results should also be given in the one search function eg Adelaide to Paris. And when you want to change an Award booking you are given very few options to change these bookings online yet you can find the exact same dates, and start and end points if doing a new booking.
It's hard to know where incompetence ends and deliberate design starts. I would be interested to hear from someone like @madrooster how an agents functions compare to a general online user. However, I fully agree that QF does not make it easy, but have had very similar search problems with BA, LH, A3, AY etc.
 
I agree with the AFF response article, except for one detail about carrier surcharges: "We accept that these charges exist, however, more transparency about the existence and amount of these carrier charges is required."

These charges started off as fuel surcharges after massive fuel price rises. That they have remained is little short of fraudulent misrepresentation by the airlines and the fact that it has become common doesn't make it any more right. It performs the same action as component pricing, which is to obscure the true cost of a purchase. As such, it would be consistent for the ACCC to restrict it in a similar way to component pricing involving only money. (i.e. outlaw it)

While I personally don't like carrier charges either, they have become an industry "norm" with many airlines (including those outside of Australia) charging them. The government could ban them in Australia - as the governments of Brazil and the Philippines have done - and this may indeed be a good thing for consumers in the short term. But I fear that this may result in unintended consequences as airlines look to recover their margins (such as a massive increase in points required for a redemption) in the long term.

In any case, if carrier charges are going to be applied, airlines (especially Qantas) need to be more transparent about the amounts. The fact that Qantas does not currently publish a list of carrier charges anywhere, and you can't see the taxes & charges online on any reward booking for which you don't already have enough points, is a disgrace.

If the public was fully aware of the existence and amount of each airline's carrier charges, this could result in natural market pressure on Qantas to further reduce or eliminate them, without the need for unnecessary government regulation that - as we've seen in the past with things like the RBA interchange fee regulations - may backfire.

Mattg deserves enormous credit for his research and for stating AFF will submit its thoughts.

My only standout disagreement with Mattg would be 'why is AFF not concerned by FF points having an expiry date?'

When we give our (or our company's/govt agency's) money to an airline for a flight, that transfer of funds doesn't suddenly "expire" - i.e. it never reverts back to you or I, because a service has been provided.

So if FF points are part of the lure to get us to book with airline X and not with a competitor (or in Australia, drive or go by train/ferry/bus where practical), why should they ever expire (assuming the airline remains in business)?

It's the 'gift card' argument. I believe one well known retailer of books has as part of its business model that around 30 per cent of gift cards will never be redeemed because they expire 12 months from date of issue.

I hope AFF (looking at you, Mattg) changes its collective mind on this issue.

Again, I think we need to be careful what we wish for. If loyalty programs at least made a proper effort to inform members before their points expire, then this at least gives members a fair opportunity to take action before this happens.

Loyalty programs factor in "breakage" (points that expire unredeemed) as a core component of the business model and margin. This diagram from Qantas' 2017 investor day presentation shows this:

Screen Shot 2019-09-10 at 3.56.40 pm.png

If you totally eliminate breakage, the loyalty program will need to find other ways to generate this revenue - which could result in a devaluation or negative changes for all program members.

Those are my thoughts, but I am interested to hear others' opinions on these issues as well.
 
I'm firmly of the belief having done so many Award searches next year that the Qantas website is designed so that people give up doing the various searches in utter frustration. A quick "modify search" - takes you back to a completely new start so you have to enter everything again. Just not selecting "Flexible Dates" means you have to go through the whole thing all over again. The fact that using Multi City gives you many more options for long distance to Europe should also not happen - as you always have to go via Singapore, Doha, Dubai, HK, KL and so on to get to Europe, then these results should also be given in the one search function eg Adelaide to Paris. And when you want to change an Award booking you are given very few options to change these bookings online yet you can find the exact same dates, and start and end points if doing a new booking.
And when you are taken back to the new start position, there is a 'clear search' option for you to press, but the system has already done it for you! Am as frustrated as you with that little trick.
 
While I personally don't like carrier charges either, they have become an industry "norm" with many airlines (including those outside of Australia) charging them. The government could ban them in Australia - as the governments of Brazil and the Philippines have done - and this may indeed be a good thing for consumers in the short term. But I fear that this may result in unintended consequences as airlines look to recover their margins (such as a massive increase in points required for a redemption) in the long term.

I guess it comes down to lack of competition. North American based carriers don't charge fuel surcharges on their award tickets, and the prices for their award levels aren't sky high. Well... I guess that was before dynamic pricing. But be that as it may, there are still 'standard' awards available through AA for 40K business class AU-Asia, and 57.5K TATL. The latter come with USD5.60 taxes fees and charges. And award levels way down on what QF charges.

Let's say the Aussie government banned fuel surcharges on awards. QF and VA might want to increase their award levels, but then they really wouldn't be able to compete with all the foreign carriers that come here with lower levels (and levels set by the market in which they operate).

SQ won't increase their award rates as they are set with a Singapore sales point in mind. EK won't change theirs. etc.

How far could QF increase their award levels without losing their customer base entirely? (you increase an 8K MEL-SYD economy to 16K and all of a sudden your Woollies shopper might stop accruing points)
 
Yes, remember when you used to be able to get up to 30c per litre fuel discounts if you did this and that and spent this and that at Coles and Woolies. Then the ACCC got involved and limited the maximum discount to 8c per litre because "the scheme was too difficult for some people to understand".

That's not the reason it was limited at all. In fact, they still can offer them, as long as it is the fuel operation that is funding the discount. They weren't allowed to have the supermarket division funding the discount.
The problem at the time, was that the competition was in the petrol station industry was decreasing at a rapid clip in face of the significant discounting the supermarkets were funding.
 
It's hard to know where incompetence ends and deliberate design starts. I would be interested to hear from someone like @madrooster how an agents functions compare to a general online user. However, I fully agree that QF does not make it easy, but have had very similar search problems with BA, LH, A3, AY etc.

Veteran agents don't use a graphical system - we all use a full command line based system. I can search and go through an entire month's award availability in 2-3 minutes using that - specifically, I can see an entire month's worth of exact results. So that means I can see flight numbers, how many seats etc. for an entire month, in 2-3 minutes of searching. I can also filter in my searching - for example I can force certain flight numbers if I only want EK A388 flights. For that matter, agents with the appropriate know-how can also see a lot of award availability that does not show on airline sites.

New agents may start off on a graphical system that looks similar to an airline website search but that's more like being on training wheels on a bike. You don't use that on an ongoing basis.
 
I think the AFF article with the proposed response has captured my thoughts and more really well. One thing I would reemphasise is the opacity and unnecessary complexity of some schemes. The obvious case in point is QFF after the 'simpler and fairer' nonsense on top of the existing complexity.

In relative terms I think the QFF and VA schemes have been relatively good. I have seen schemes sometimes axed and replaced, an example is the new Big4 caravan parks scheme, which something like doubled the bar to gold when I was 85% there, and reduced the real benefits at the same time. And the country comfort- chifley etc hotels scheme which was abolished and replaced more than once. One real villain is the common clause in the T&Cs which says something like 'we can do anything we like, including abolish the scheme and trash your points, and you ain't got no comeback'.

cheers skip
 
The ACCC has now published all of the submissions on its website.

Some interesting submissions. One from a disgruntled FFer who lost his QFF points through inactivity. Several very defensie submission (Rokt, QF), and lots of privacy-based submissions.

I was taken by the submission from ADMA, who made several brief but coherent responses to key issues raised about airline schemes:

Concerns about the expiry of points ADMA supports reasonable measures that would prevent points from expiring without first providing the member with a simple remedy.
Concerns about unilateral reductions in the redemptive value of points ADMA supports reasonable measures that would prevent points from being devalued without first providing the member with a simple remedy.​
 
This comment from Qantas in its snowy submission was eye-raising;
Earn rates are determined by the Program Partner supplying the relevant product or service on which Qantas Points are earned.

It suggests that partner airlines purchase the points awarded for a points-earning flight on a partner airline, and for example MH points accruals are meagre because MH is parsimonious. But that doesn’t seem plausible given things like QFF’s decision not so long ago to drastically reduce the points and status earning rates of most partner airlines. It would gave been fairer to say earn rates are determined by Qantas based on the partner, etc.

Also interesting that there weren’t many submissions. The usual airline and supermarket suspects, but didn’t see any hotel chains and other accommodation providers, and very few from retailers. My pile of points earn plastic is dominated by the latter two groups, and Hotel schemes are where my few grudges against unfair dealings lie.

Cheers skip
 
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