Lack of curtains separating Business and Economy on 737

[JessicaTam]

Clearly I’m visually impaired. I’ve not seen that sign that you all keep referring to.

It is a small (maybe 5x10cm) sign on the hard section of divider that is near the overhead lockers. It says something like 'Business passengers only past this point, except in an emergency'.

 

[dk4]

...aside from the FA's, i have yet to see anyone cross either cabin cross the BIZ rope.

I think the rope presents a really interesting case study.

When Virgin Australia transitioned (i.e. stopped being Virgin Blue and upgraded from P.E. aka their "euro-business" style seats at the front), it had to re-educate its guests, all of whom were use to using the nearest toilet (just like anyone who flies Tigerair or Jetstar does), to turn around - a decision presumably designed to add more exclusivity to the front of their aircraft.

So IME Virgin takes Business and Economy separation much more seriously than Qantas, as any interloper in a VA purple boarding queue will know, when they are politely advised to walk back to the red carpet queue. Even the welcome on board as you step over the threshold is different for Business Class. (i.e. "Welcome to Business Class, I/(or the CS's name if an FA is doing BP checks) will be with you shortly"). It persists right up until disembarkation, with a FA moving to position themselves where the rope was (once the doors are disarmed on arrival) to ensure there is no rush forward from Economy passengers into the Business cabin.

Anyway, I agree the rope does its job, in fact so well that IME only two flights stand out where it didn't:

The first was when the rope was broken, or more specifically the magnet (as the CS explained to me) - this meant that after a few Economy passengers started heading forward, she had to spend the rest of the flight standing guard. (Not quite in the same way the FAs do for the pilots on VA, but certainly with one eye out ready to turn people around.)

The second was when an interloper actually detached the rope and used the forward toilet. After the event the CS came over and sincerely apologised that someone had come through and been to the lavatory - so it is obviously drummed into them during training that the forward loo on VA is an exclusive part of the Business Class experience. (Where as on QF they quite obviously take a differing approach for their own reasons.)

I think the rope is also important during the F&B service in J on VA, as the CS delivers everything by hand and really doesn't need the interference from people walking through their work zone. (Noting the CSM on QF does their J service from a trolley, so it forms the barrier.)

 

[Gold60]

Thanks dk4, a very interesting and enlightening overview. It possibly explains quite a lot around this apparently vexing issue..

I think the rope presents a really interesting case study.

When Virgin Australia transitioned (i.e. stopped being Virgin Blue and upgraded from P.E. aka their "euro-business" style seats at the front), it had to re-educate its guests, all of whom were use to using the nearest toilet (just like anyone who flies Tigerair or Jetstar does), to turn around - a decision presumably designed to add more exclusivity to the front of their aircraft.

So IME Virgin takes Business and Economy separation much more seriously than Qantas, as any interloper in a VA purple boarding queue will know, when they are politely advised to walk back to the red carpet queue. Even the welcome on board as you step over the threshold is different for Business Class. (i.e. "Welcome to Business Class, I/(or the CS's name if an FA is doing BP checks) will be with you shortly"). It persists right up until disembarkation, with a FA moving to position themselves where the rope was (once the doors are disarmed on arrival) to ensure there is no rush forward from Economy passengers into the Business cabin.

Anyway, I agree the rope does its job, in fact so well that IME only two flights stand out where it didn't:

The first was when the rope was broken, or more specifically the magnet (as the CS explained to me) - this meant that after a few Economy passengers started heading forward, she had to spend the rest of the flight standing guard. (Not quite in the same way the FAs do for the pilots on VA, but certainly with one eye out ready to turn people around.)

The second was when an interloper actually detached the rope and used the forward toilet. After the event the CS came over and sincerely apologised that someone had come through and been to the lavatory - so it is obviously drummed into them during training that the forward loo on VA is an exclusive part of the Business Class experience. (Where as on QF they quite obviously take a differing approach for their own reasons.)

I think the rope is also important during the F&B service in J on VA, as the CS delivers everything by hand and really doesn't need the interference from people walking through their work zone. (Noting the CSM on QF does their J service from a trolley, so it forms the barrier.)

 

[oz_mark]

t. None of those criminal offences are called trespass because (how many times do I have to say this?) trespass is not a crime.

It is if you trespass on Commonwealth property.

Besides, things don't have to be a crime to be unlawful, and enforceable by the police. Running a red light is not a crime, for example

 

[straitman]

No disrespect intended but it’s pretty obvious that you aren’t trained in how to read an Act so I’m not going to respond any further to the bush lawyer arguments that you persist in putting up.

Thanks Anna. Interesting post.

Rubbish. Yours is just as much of an opinion as mine. I just don’t claim to be right purely on authority.

I wasn't going to respond here again but as Anna brought the legal side of this up again I will make one more post.

To obtain any Pilots Licence, Student, Private, Commercial, Senior Commercial or Airline Transport Pilots Licence it is a requirement to study, interpret and pass examinations on Aviation Law. (I have or have had all of these licences for both fixed wing and helicopter operations.) Also as Chief Pilot and Aviation SME (for this part of the world) for the largest oil company in the world I needed to know much of this or at the very least know who to ask if needed. ie I was not talking from opinion alone.

 

[PJF]

I think we’ve reached peak absurdness for the justifications ppl are coming up with to rationalise their abuse of the J toilet. Guys, just stretch your legs, stop being entitled princesses and control your bodily functions like a normal member of society.

Hmmmmmmmmm what would row 4 or any others do if QF introduced the rope like VA

 

[DC3]

Clearly I’m visually impaired. I’ve not seen that sign that you all keep referring to .....

Not necessarily visually impaired. You would not see that sign from your business class seat.

 

[PJF]

Looking at some information provided by CASA here: CAAP 253-2(0): Passenger safety information: Guidelines on the content and standard of safety information to be provided to passengers by aircraft operators

It says:

2.3 SUPPLEMENTAL INFORMATION

2.3.1 The following information should be included in the oral briefing to ensure understanding and compliance with all safety requirements:
(a) requirement for passengers to abide by crew member instructions and passenger information signs eg. lighted information signs, placards;
(b) the location of safety information cards and the fact that they contain additional safety information that the passengers should read; and
(c) instructions regarding passenger pre-takeoff requirements ie. position of seat backs, tray tables and any other item that is not in its appropriate stowage location.
​

'Business class only beyond this point' is on a placard. While it is only semi safety related (protection of the flightdeck), I'm wondering if it could be the basis for a rule rather than a request?[/QUOTE

Interesting:

(a) requirement for passengers to abide by crew member instructions and passenger information signs eg. lighted information signs, placards;

abide

verb

1. 1.
   accept or act in accordance with (a rule, decision, or recommendation).
   "I said I would abide by their decision"
   synonyms: comply with, obey, observe, follow, keep to, hold to, conform to, adhere to, stick to, stand by, act in accordance with, uphold, heed, pay attention to, agree to/with, consent to, accede to, accept, acquiesce in, go along with, acknowledge, respect, defer to
   "he expected everybody to abide by the rules"

 

[PJF]

As I and many others have stated on multiple occasions, the issue is not with the occasional and unpredictable bladder/bowel urgency. That said, if one knows they have a condition that requires quick and unscheduled visits to the bathroom, as raised by other posters, why aren't they choosing a seat near the toilet?



Stealing is an offensive behaviour. Just because it's semi-normalised doesn't mean it's wrong. If you pirate movies, you're a muppet (regardless of how many others do it). Same situation here. If thieves want respect, they need to behave respectfully.



Again this has been addressed. If one attempts to inconvenience the cabin crew by barging down from row 4 to the back toilets during cart time, of course they're going to ask you to go up front. It's the lesser of two evils. Still makes said passenger and selfish clown for not planning ahead. And yes it is as simplistic as being "all about 30 minutes" because humanity is able to cope with such timeframes in plenty of other situations. Funny how you don't hear about people coughping in their cars during the daily commute as frequently as you do about Y passengers "requiring" the use of the J toilet!



Really?
1. "Qantas has a company policy which says all signs relating to domestic priority services are optional and not to be enforced by cabin crew". Logical?? So all these 'signs' are for what? Decoration?
2. "Signs are suggestions, not rules". Logical? Again, what's the point of the sign? And even if true, still makes you an entitled brat for willfully disobeying it. If there's a "Quiet please" sign in the library, being an obnoxious loudmouth still makes you a prick even if you can't be prosecuted.
3. "The business passengers only beyond this point sign is hard to see". Logical?? So even though you know it exists, because you think others don't see it, that gives you the right to ignore it?

At the end of the day, these clowns deprive paying J passengers of something they paid for. Not sure why one is worried about 'offending' these undesirables.

Probably the same people who pass you on the freeway doing 160 kph in a 110 zone in the BMW and then you see them down the road giving the Police Officer an excuse (i don't need to follow the rules as I am busting to go to the toilet) so it is ok that I am speeding.

 

[Pushka]

It is a small (maybe 5x10cm) sign on the hard section of divider that is near the overhead lockers. It says something like 'Business passengers only past this point, except in an emergency'.

Ah. I would look out for that next time but that’s like 2x4 inches? Never gonna see that.

Not necessarily visually impaired. You would not see that sign from your business class seat.

I’m usually in Y domestic. The only time I’d be in J on domestic was if I’d booked an international flight and this was the connector.

 

[marki]

It is a small (maybe 5x10cm) sign on the hard section of divider that is near the overhead lockers. It says something like 'Business passengers only past this point, except in an emergency'.

Do you have a picture ? is it on Qantas flights too?

 

[JessicaTam]

Do you have a picture ? is it on Qantas flights too?

Umm, I was talking about QF.

And no, it is not something I have ever thought to photograph - until now.

 

[marki]

Ooops that means the message is not coming across to the masses( I am also part of that Mass obviously). I try to be a little contra whenever in J, I walk to the aft toilets. Use them and at the same time stretch my legs. Can never get into the J toilets anyway.

 

[love_the_life]

Ooops that means the message is not coming across to the masses. To be a little contra whenever in J, I walk to the aft toilets. Use them and at the same time stretch my legs. Can never get into the J toilets anyway.

Never seen the J toilets over full on domestic flights.

 

[marki]

Its the Bladder timing synchronizing thing, Saying never is an absolute. "Over full" I don't think I had mentioned that in my previous post at all. Sometimes a locked toilet and bladder sync. So being contra I walk aft whilst everybody else likes walking forward to the J toilet. Wow touchy subject for some

 

[Pleb Status]

Would this make a difference?

 

[marki]

Would this make a difference?

View attachment 124457

of course it does ....Vacant Stare

 

[davidj]

Never seen the J toilets over full on domestic flights.

Don't you just need 1 occupier and its "full"?

 

[marki]

Don't you just need 1 occupier and its "full"?

Sometimes it can be two. Diehards out there pushing up the mile high club statistics

 

[PJF]

Why?

You feel you're entitled to an exclusive toilet where it makes no sense. I don't. That has nothing to do with lack of respect.

And just because you're in business/first doesn't mean I have to respect you more or less than the person in economy.

When you're sitting in rows 1/2 it doesn't matter if the person using the front toilet is coming from row 3, row 4 or row 11. Does it? In fact you'll more than likely have no idea.

Now if you wanted to use the toilet and there was a queue with people from econony then you'd have every right to be upset but when toilet is not being used who cares if there's a person here and there from economy using the toilet?

Next thing you'll be telling me that I shouldn't accept the business class headphones or the glass of champagne from business class because I'm not entitled to those benefits. And if you don't there a few on AFF that actually think that way.

Sorry I'll continue to accept and I'll even ask when prompted.

Just a question. If you are travelling in row 4 why would you get business class headphones and a glass of champagne ? Is this not for passengers who have paid a considerable amount of money. (way over $177) in business class for that privilege. If a passenger in row 4 gets that treatment then would not every passenger from that row to the back of the plane be entitled to the same treatment.