Wind Generation and the Electricity Grid

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I don't see why it has to be so black and white.

I agree with renewable energy - makes a lot of sense. But we can't throw the baby out with the bath water so we need to SAFELY transition so we don't put at risk businesses and people's health and expenditure by going all out for it. All that does is make people angry about it.

Climate change is real. It's been happening - for ever. We need to adapt to it, reduce our impact on it but we can never stop it.

Guess that puts me right in the middle. Tarring people as lefties or righties doesn't really help.
 
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Re: The totally off-topic thread

And when the problems of insufficient power starts affecting Victoria the person to blame will be forgotten.

Jeff Kennett privatised many formerly State government industries during an economic crisis in Victoria. However, now the chickens are coming home to roost. No planning was done for when the power station reached the end of its economic life.

The owners will close it and walk away with no replacement. Hazelwood: What will happen when the power plant closes? - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) As noted in this article there will be a reliance on power from NSW.

The owners appear to have seriously under quoted how much it will take to remediate the area. And it's a real possibility they don't have the funds. Hazelwood rehabilitation estimated to cost $743 million but may rise, Engie says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

The now extinct State Electricity Commission (SEC) would've closed it years ago with new power stations already built and on line. They also trained the best apprentices in the state which meant they could service their stations and so on.

It is incidents like this that will reveal the true costs of privatisation and leave tax payers to pick up the pieces with no repercussions for the companies who profited.

What about the political parties who sold our assets?
 
Re: The totally off-topic thread

I understand that the turbines were cut before the towers fell over. Perfect storm and all that. Are there power towers in Qld? Would have thought they would have been built to withstand stronger winds to be honest.

As I understand the foundations were shoddy.

ElectraNet was first warned in 2005 of the risk that 43 of its *towers could collapse in windy conditions because of corrosion and degradation of foundations.

Nocookies | The Australian
 
Re: The totally off-topic thread

Here in NSW we just tell the aluminium smelter to ease up on its use of virtually free electricity for a bit and we've got plenty of power.

Tomago helped to avoid blackout | Newcastle Herald

Tomago will not be around that much longer as its cost of production is much higher than recently built plants.

Most of you will know that in the industry that Aluminum is called 'solid electricity'. What most people do not realise is that any state with an Aluminum smelter is paying a subsidy (nicely hidden) in the hundreds of millions each year.

Why a subsidy? Because it is a hangover from the 1950s power grid - coal-fired stations need to operate 24 hours a day to breakeven let alone make money. For large parts of those 24 hours there was no demand for the coal-fired electricity so.....

A smart 'consultant' (not called that in those days) convinced once State Govt that they must get an Aluminum smelter, and the dominoes started falling. Once the interconnector was built between Tasmania and Victoria - from a Federal perspective - Bell Bay should have been shut down. That would have seen relatively small job losses but would have seen the Australia-wide (not WA though) cost of power drop 5-12% (according to an embargoed report).

Imagine what benefit that would have been to Australian businesses and the general public as a whole?

It was never looked upon as what is best for Australia as a whole but literally 'bugger thy neighbour state'. Each State looked to supposedly maximise their monopoly generators profits at the expense of the community and Australia as a whole.
_____________________________________________

Tomago on a typical day uses over 12% of all electricity consumed in NSW. However it pays around 10-15% the price that home owners pay per kwh. I know of one agreement where the price was set at 5% of the price at setting dates (every ten years).

This article is a little out of date but it provides some number to help understand what's going on.

https://agmetalminer.com/2015/11/24/power-costs-the-production-primary-aluminum/

Although the newest smelters can be closer to 12,500 kWh per ton, let’s say most smelters are consuming electricity at 14,500-15,000 kWh/ton of ingot produced. With the LME at $1,300/metric ton, that means electricity should be costing a typical smelter $0.029/kWh.
Needless to say, smelters are rather coy about their power cost contracts so it’s hard to verify how prevalent this number is though many smelters are on variable power cost contracts with their electricity suppliers such that the power generators are paid a fixed percentage of the world ingot price. If we take that as one-third, then it’s not only smelters that are losing money – many power generators must be, too.

When US national average industrial and commercial electricity consumers are paying $0.0706/kWh and $0.1013/kWh, respectively, according to the Energy Information Administration, to be selling power to smelters at $0.029/kWh represents a huge subsidy.

So companies (foreign mainly) play one state off against another state or country, and allegedly make donations to certain political parties (legally and illegally). Even then they find better deals (more corruption - never) overseas which has seen Alcoa close all but one of its US smelters (for example).


...and Australians now have the highest electricity prices in the world despite having the closest supply of coal (power stations built next to the mine), most plentiful supply of gas, best solar resources and amongst the best wind resources.

1 + 1 no longer makes 2 in Australia.
 
Re: The totally off-topic thread

Who is to blame for the SA blackouts?

No one person, generator nor politician nor bureaucrat. Who should be shouldering or be accountable for the bulk of the blame - the AEMO and the SA transmission authority.

Ultimately both Federal and State politicians of all colours as what led up to the major blackout last year was many years in the making, totally predictable (and for different components was predicted over a decade ago). The reality I suspect is that despite some people should be losing their jobs - nothing will happen as too many politicians (and party officials were complicit).

The AEMO had been warned about the strong winds days ahead of the event. Did they do anything to ameliorate the expected impacts? Did they know what they should do is more the question.

SA transmission authority - the reports were produced warning of structural integrity issues year after year yet the spending never ramped up to deal with it. Was the State Govt thinking of privatising the poles and wires perhaps (any consultants in their ears, never guess who were visiting Adelaide and hosting SA pollies & bureaucrats at the MCG and Olympic Stadium would you?). Were the SA Pollies also taking generous dividends out of the operator at the same time the operator was getting more efficient (aka cost cutting, easiest method cut maintenance spending today so its your successor or successor's successor's problem 10 or 15 years down the track while you have retired with your generous payouts).

AEMO - when you have inexperienced people possibly with a bias who know better than anybody else you are guaranteed to get issues. Did the AEMO bother to EVER contact/visit the grid operators in Europe who have managed wind farms for some decades now? Did they ask them what problems/issues they had when they first introduced wind farms to the mix? How they overcame them? What contingencies they needed to be prepared for?

Heads should roll, but they won't. What happened with the wind farms shutting down was an issue dealt with in Europe more than a decade ago and has not happened since.

Wind farm suppliers/builders - who know all the intricate details to do with the management of the output in all conditions thanks to their experience from Europe. A small amount of blame maybe 0.3%. If people won't listen to your advice - what can you do?

Wind farm promoters/packagers - who are only interest in maximising Return on Investment which is ideally on-selling the project before construction commences but after approvals have been granted so ROE is in the hundreds of percent. Coincidentally most of the usual suspects appear on many parties' donor lists. Much bigger share of the blame.

End holders of wind farms - eg: Super funds, retail funds, insurance companies. Due diligence, "but we relied on our consultants". A bit like the consultants who said Brisconnections, Lane Cove Tunnel, Sydney Crosscity tunnel etc were great investments. BUYER beware.
 
Re: The totally off-topic thread

the arguments will remain circular as long as the government tries to clumsily dismantle renewable industry support and policy -

they clearly want to change course to ensure that baseload from coal is locked in for decades (which personally I'm not against as we need to dig up/export as much as possible to get our gov. debt paid down and build reserves against future global financial shocks),

this should be doable as long as higher quality coal is burnt so that carbon reduction targets are met and the renewables industry is supported as it matures and becomes a bigger part of the mix.
 
Re: The totally off-topic thread

I promised not to get into the playground but...

I decided to google wind farms in south australia. According to wikipedia and google map there are none at Port Augusta. But there are a number 100 to 200 km south east of port augusta.

Heresay - Evidence that is not within the personal knowledge of a witness, such as testimony regarding statements made by someone other than the witness, and that therefore may be inadmissible to establish the truth of a particular contention because the accuracy of the evidence cannot be verified through cross-examination.

It has everything to do with the power outages as SA has not modernised the grid.

So the grid is to blame then.
 
Re: The totally off-topic thread

Our PM has upgraded his solar panels to 14kWh and installed battery back up at his harbourside mansion.

RenewEconomy on Monday confirmed with the PM’s office that a battery storage device was installed in Turnbull’s private property late last year. It is believed to be 14kWh of LG Chem lithium-ion battery, to complement his rooftop solar array previously installed and recently upgraded to 14kW.

Malcolm Turnbull has battery storage installed in Point Piper home : Renew Economy
 
Re: The totally off-topic thread

Tomago will not be around that much longer as its cost of production is much higher than recently built plants.

Most of you will know that in the industry that Aluminum is called 'solid electricity'. What most people do not realise is that any state with an Aluminum smelter is paying a subsidy (nicely hidden) in the hundreds of millions each year.

Why a subsidy? Because it is a hangover from the 1950s power grid - coal-fired stations need to operate 24 hours a day to breakeven let alone make money. For large parts of those 24 hours there was no demand for the coal-fired electricity so.....

A smart 'consultant' (not called that in those days) convinced once State Govt that they must get an Aluminum smelter, and the dominoes started falling. Once the interconnector was built between Tasmania and Victoria - from a Federal perspective - Bell Bay should have been shut down. That would have seen relatively small job losses but would have seen the Australia-wide (not WA though) cost of power drop 5-12% (according to an embargoed report).

Imagine what benefit that would have been to Australian businesses and the general public as a whole?

It was never looked upon as what is best for Australia as a whole but literally 'bugger thy neighbour state'. Each State looked to supposedly maximise their monopoly generators profits at the expense of the community and Australia as a whole.
_____________________________________________

Tomago on a typical day uses over 12% of all electricity consumed in NSW. However it pays around 10-15% the price that home owners pay per kwh. I know of one agreement where the price was set at 5% of the price at setting dates (every ten years).

This article is a little out of date but it provides some number to help understand what's going on.

https://agmetalminer.com/2015/11/24/power-costs-the-production-primary-aluminum/

Although the newest smelters can be closer to 12,500 kWh per ton, let’s say most smelters are consuming electricity at 14,500-15,000 kWh/ton of ingot produced. With the LME at $1,300/metric ton, that means electricity should be costing a typical smelter $0.029/kWh.
Needless to say, smelters are rather coy about their power cost contracts so it’s hard to verify how prevalent this number is though many smelters are on variable power cost contracts with their electricity suppliers such that the power generators are paid a fixed percentage of the world ingot price. If we take that as one-third, then it’s not only smelters that are losing money – many power generators must be, too.

When US national average industrial and commercial electricity consumers are paying $0.0706/kWh and $0.1013/kWh, respectively, according to the Energy Information Administration, to be selling power to smelters at $0.029/kWh represents a huge subsidy.

So companies (foreign mainly) play one state off against another state or country, and allegedly make donations to certain political parties (legally and illegally). Even then they find better deals (more corruption - never) overseas which has seen Alcoa close all but one of its US smelters (for example).


...and Australians now have the highest electricity prices in the world despite having the closest supply of coal (power stations built next to the mine), most plentiful supply of gas, best solar resources and amongst the best wind resources.

1 + 1 no longer makes 2 in Australia.

Excellent insight. I knew it was a rort but I didn't know how much of a rort. I remember some years ago there was talk of closing the smelter in Tasmania which could have meant that the hydroelectricity produced from Lake Pedder would no longer be needed so they could let that river "run free again". Not sure what happened!

I wonder how much coal in Qld is dug out of the ground to keep the Yarwun smelter going. Looks like Rio Tinto are doing their bit:
Yarwun - Rio Tinto
 
Re: The totally off-topic thread

Some very informative graphs (based on ABS data and other Govt sources) in this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ut&utm_term=213512&subid=12589455&CMP=ema_632

I found the graphs on total grid energy consumption (you can choose what state or Aust as a whole) especially meaningful.
2017 02 16 Vic Power demand.jpg
Showing Vic consumption pretty much unchanged for some years (unlike what the power companies presented in Federal Parliament...). The recent closure of the last car and engine operations should see the current trend continue. Also what these show but do not mention is that the increasing number of houses with solar panels on their roofs both decrease the demand from the grid AND as most export excess power back to the grid - cuts the generation coming from gas and black coal-fired power stations. Same for every state (impact not what generators they reduce demand for).
2017 02 16 NSW Power demand.jpg
Now this next one is the game changer which is making life so much harder for the donors, their lobbyists and the political parties. Came from a presentation given by Origin Energy's CEO recently. So this is real world figures for the cost of building a 50+ MW solar plant in Australia. Anyone want to buy a horse buggy whip (or coal fired) plant?
2017 02 16 Origin Energy declining renewables cost.jpg

With the price of batteries now down to levels where it is financially viable for most homes to buy them and either use a smart monitor system to sell back to the grid when prices go crazy and use the stored power at night for other times - or even just go off grid and have a small diesel generator for 8 to 22 hours use a year - watch the lobbyists and certain journalists launch the attack on renewables.

Who needs truth when vested interests are in control?
 
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Proposals for battery storage in SA.

South Australian-based renewable energy company Zen Energy is working to build a $100-million solar power plant with 100 megawatts of battery storage in the region.
Chairman Professor Ross Garnaut said the battery would "solve most" of the state's energy problems and if increased by a further 50MW it would solve "all" energy issues.
"The blackouts of the past year would not have happened if this was in place," he said.

Solar power battery storage would solve SA's electricity problems, company says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
 

True - up to a point.

With all the spin, or as it is now dubbed - "post-truth" lies - the storage would help with unexpected/expected generator outages but nothing (apart from underground power cables) would have made up for the transmission towers being toppled.

Other than proper maintenance that is.
 
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With Sydney's recent heatwave, their were plans to cut power to Ballarat and Bendigo and instead send it to NSW.

While Melbourne had only moderately above-average temperatures, the regional cities were much warmer, with Bendigo topping 41 degrees that day. Sydney reached 37.5 degrees, while western suburbs exceeded 44 degrees at the start of a two-day scorcher that smashed February records in NSW.
The Victorian government is understood to have been angered by the information power supplies to parts of the state might be sacrificed even as it was exporting as much electricity as it could to its northern neighbour.

"It doesn't appear they were sacrificing Bendigo and Ballarat for Sydney as much as they preparing to sacrifice [those two cities] for Tomago Aluminium," Mr McConnell said. "NSW got through by the skin of their teeth."
Tomago, which accounts for about 12 per cent of NSW demand, was ordered by AEMO to shed 290 megawatts of load by closing one of its three smelter potlines at about 6pm, AEDT. That curtailment overlapped with an order from its power supplier AGL also in place, meaning Tomago removed 580 MW from demand for a period.

NSW avoided a repeat of SA's power cuts - which took about 90,000 homes offline for about 40 minutes - in part because Tomago Aluminium could be asked to turn off its smelter potlines.
AEMO estimates the government's call early in the day for consumers to avoid unnecessary power use and even to raise the thermostats on airconditioners to 26 degrees helped keep demand about 200 MW below forecast at the time of peak demand.
NSW also relied on 1745 MW of electricity imports from Victoria and Queensland at the height of demand, or about 12 per cent of its supplies.
Rooftop solar panels also helped save 291 MW in demand at 6pm, local time, even with the sun low in the sky, the report said.

Victoria, if we are not subsiding the infrastructure of other states, then we are helping to power the rest of the country while we sit in the dark.
 
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Yesterday we were told not to use electricity unless essential. Turn off washing machines, dishwashers yada yada. Power could not be guaranteed. Why? It was hot and there was a fire at Torrens power station. That's all.

It is Mad March here. V8 race. Fringe Festival. Arts Festival.

There is always an excuse. Too hot. Lack of wind. Too much wind. A fire. And all in the last 3 months. Never been like this before in the history of SA. So much for progress.

There is no provision in our electricity supply for emergency. It's like spending all your money and then the fridge breaks down. Screwed.

In our case our relentless drive to exceed the national target of renewables has been pursued with no thought for contingency.

People and businesses here are spending tens of thousands of dollars on generators. Which are diesel or gas driven. Dirty. Yet the Govt is claiming SA is green. What a furphy. While the Govt is being renewable all they are doing is forcing others to revert to non green measures to back them up. While our premier flies in a plane to Paris to tell the world how good SA is. Rot.
 
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