Wind Generation and the Electricity Grid

[drron]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

I am not sure how wind turbines shutting down and not generating power caused towers to fall over? Yes, the wind in Pt Augusta was recorded at about 80-90kmh but weather stations are not thick on the ground in that part of the world. Localised weather event, anyone? Much the same as those that have occurred in Victoria's NE from time to time that require the BOM to give "estimated" wind speeds as they didn't occur where the weather stations were.

They can measure wind at Port Augusta and you can see real time readings-
Port Augusta Wind Forecast, SA 5700 - WillyWeather

The super cell that day was well south east of port augusta at Blyth 165km as the crow flys.

The wind turbines are continually changing the production of electricity.that can cause changes in the transmission lines which could weaken the towers.

 

[drron]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Alternative Facts, drron. That's not what the FOI request reveals. It's time you supported your arguments with documented facts rather than just sophistry. Or maybe just post pictures of coal on AFF?

But it is the words of the Chairman of AEMO.So reasonably authorative.

 

[JessicaTam]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

<snip>

The wind turbines are continually changing the production of electricity.that can cause changes in the transmission lines which could weaken the towers.

Now I understand the point you have been making. ^

I need to do some more research.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

But it is the words of the Chairman of AEMO.So reasonably authorative.

Not according to the documented sources. Provide sources for your arguments.

 

[drron]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Not according to the documented sources. Provide sources for your arguments.

I have.AEMO is the authority on electricity transmission in Australia.
What are your documented sources?

 

[wandering_fred]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

...
The wind turbines are continually changing the production of electricity.that can cause changes in the transmission lines which could weaken the towers.

I don't think my physics instructors would be able to confirm that statement... Now if you had said the turbine towers, I'd have to think about it, but if it were true some engineering firms would lose big time.

without wandering

Fred

 

[TheRealTMA]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

I have.AEMO is the authority on electricity transmission in Australia.
What are your documented sources?

Do you ever read the references people quote? See the Guardian article above and the FOI report.

 

[drron]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Yes I did.Nothing there that is current.A lot more research has gone into the causes since then.my source is from last week not 5 months ago.
I thought you might have something current.
So at the risk of boring people a couple of nerds in the business talking about the problem of integrating variable renewables into a grid not built for that-

[video=youtube_share;kU6izpryqqw]https://youtu.be/kU6izpryqqw[/video]

 

[drron]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

And some more of the science.

[video=youtube_share;gJtv7gkuh1s]https://youtu.be/gJtv7gkuh1s[/video]

 

[TheRealTMA]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

That's all well and fine but you have changed the goalposts (again). That's got little to do with the actual events of the recent power outages. All it does is argue a case for the modernisation of and better management of the grid and assorted power generating sources by the AEMO and limiting price gouging by the operators of various systems.

 

[jukebox333]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

They can measure wind at Port Augusta and you can see real time readings-
Port Augusta Wind Forecast, SA 5700 - WillyWeather

The super cell that day was well south east of port augusta at Blyth 165km as the crow flys.

The wind turbines are continually changing the production of electricity.that can cause changes in the transmission lines which could weaken the towers.

Sorry Drron but I have to call that out: The amount of cable between towers does not change. They get hot and get cold, depending on *load* but that has nought to do with the supply. And the majority of towers are "suspension towers" that allow the cable a degree of fore and aft movement. "Tension" towers are used at corners, or every 5km or so to stop a domino effect if a line is pulled down.


Tension tower - the insulators are parallel to the ground, and there is more steel in the tower.

Suspension tower- the insulators are vertical.

You can't weaken a suspension tower with small cable movement - the insulators are designed to swing.

The biggest fluctuation in cable tension is actually on freezing winter mornings, when everyone has their heaters on, but the ambient temperature is almost zero - the lines are cold overnight, and then get quite warm as they are loaded.

 

[drron]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

It has everything to do with the power outages as SA has not modernised the grid.
Also 10 months before the state wide blackout SA came periously close to a state wide blackout-no storms,no towers down but a sudden drop in wind power triggering the shut down of the interconnector.
https://stopthesethings.com/2015/11...-south-australian-homes-businesses-powerless/

Not that SA is alone.NSW came close to major load shedding last week.Over the last 3 years they have closed Wallerawang-1000MW and Lake Munmorah-1400MW.They have planned to close Liddell-2000MW-all up that would amount to 25% of Friday's peak demand.Exactly the same as Victoria plans to do in just over 1 month.Though the Vics are going to wipeout their barramundi-
Barramundi find new home down south in Victoria's Latrobe Valley - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[Hvr]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

<snip> They have planned to close Liddell-2000MW-all up that would amount to 25% of Friday's peak demand.Exactly the same as Victoria plans to do in just over 1 month

And when the problems of insufficient power starts affecting Victoria the person to blame will be forgotten.

Jeff Kennett privatised many formerly State government industries during an economic crisis in Victoria. However, now the chickens are coming home to roost. No planning was done for when the power station reached the end of its economic life.

The owners will close it and walk away with no replacement. Hazelwood: What will happen when the power plant closes? - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) As noted in this article there will be a reliance on power from NSW.

The owners appear to have seriously under quoted how much it will take to remediate the area. And it's a real possibility they don't have the funds. Hazelwood rehabilitation estimated to cost $743 million but may rise, Engie says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

The now extinct State Electricity Commission (SEC) would've closed it years ago with new power stations already built and on line. They also trained the best apprentices in the state which meant they could service their stations and so on.

It is incidents like this that will reveal the true costs of privatisation and leave tax payers to pick up the pieces with no repercussions for the companies who profited.

 

[wandering_fred]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Inflation has well and truly managed to make the cost of new power plants (of any variety) much more expensive than what is being replaced. OTOH what is not being said is that modern coal powered generation plants are much more efficient than plants that were built 40 years ago. That is, for a given amount of coal (and therefore generated CO2) a much larger amount of electricity would be generated. Or less CO2 for the same amount of electric power.

A couple of issues mostly being ignored:
Pollution other than CO2 is there but no one talks about it. Particulates (of any sort), SO2, Thorium and heavy metals in general.
Distribution losses - I have seen a value of 3% per 1000km...
Traditional manning rates. I understand safety issues, but I think it took between 8 and 10 men to replace a local transformer that was hit by lightning. Perhaps a bit too much in the way of separation of duties/responsibilities? Does wonders to the costs of the distribution system.

Hopefully the cost of battery storage will come down soon. I used about 500 units and put 800 into the system on the last (two months) bill. While it doesn't work that well in winter, I'm getting tired of the weekly 2 second "switching" outages which are year round.


Feel free to disagree.

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[PLANT]

This and the NBN issue can be sorted with a good extended episode of UTOPIA...ABC show

 

[SFSC]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Power grids and power generation are evolving and will continue to evolve. This process has been ongoing since the 1880's and the taking of positions over renewable energy vs fossil-fuelled rotating generating plant will be viewed at some future time as akin to discussions about choosing alternating current distribution rather than direct current and the phasing out of reciprocating steam engines in favour of steam turbines in generating plants.

I am yet to form an opinion about last week's load shedding in South Australia and will read the AEMO report with interest when it is released. I understand that AEMO will be releasing a final report into the SA "black system" event of 28 September 2016 some time next month. An interim report ( https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Fil...-Report-SA-Black-System-28-September-2016.pdf ) refers to possible protection disconnects of wind powered generation shortly before the black system condition. This sort of protection is not unknown in other generating plant. I can recall that in power plants an alarm on the board or from the computer "Negative Phase Sequence" was received with some consternation by operators because it meant that a timer had been activated and that if the condition did not clear before the end of the time delay, the generating unit would trip. The NPS alarms mostly came up during troubles with the transmission system such as branches blown in high winds or sometimes ionised gases from bush fires near the lines.

One of the things that has been lost along the way with technological evolution is easy system restart capability. In the middle of the last century many boilers were spreader stoker fired, turbine condenser waterboxes held a lot of water and generator exciters were on the same shaft as the generator. This meant that a turbine-generator that had tripped as a consequence of a system black condition could be promptly run back up using residual heat from the boiler, excited, power restored to unit auxiliary boards, essential auxiliaries restarted and the boiler refired before the steam temperature fell too far.

 

[codash1099]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

I often wonder why it is that discussion on these things (climate change included) break into ideological camps. I have no definite idea of members' political leanings, other than what I discern from years of observation of the forum, but it seems that, in general, the right wing is anti-climate change and anti-renewables with the converse applying to the left wing.

To me, with a strong scientific background, facts are facts and should not be confused with opinions, and particularly opinions that have no supporting basis in fact. And there is a great mix of both in this thread. To me, this article presents a fair representation of the current situation, though I admit my personal leanings are slightly left of centre.

Energy politics has Malcolm Turnbull in a tangle | The New Daily

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Read through this site. Too technical and political but as you know I am old
and tired.
I am certainly not an engineer but the answer is simple.
As the wind passes through each generator energy is absorbed: therefore eventualy the wind must stop = no more electricity. LOL.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Read through this site. Too technical and political but as you know I am old
and tired.
I am certainly not an engineer but the answer is simple.
As the wind passes through each generator energy is absorbed: therefore eventualy the wind must stop = no more electricity. LOL.��

Are you sure it doesn't slow the rotation of the Earth?

 

[opusman]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

I suspect drron has a profitable sideline in treating patients with wind turbine syndrome.

Alternative facts, alternative physics, alternative medicine - all adds up to more money