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Qantas denies double points due to definition of "booking"

MEL_Traveller

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There are some interesting clauses on the QFF T&Cs I'm surprised no-one has mentioned:

9.3.1 Subject to the exclusions in clauses 9.3.2 and 9.4, Qantas Points for air travel may be earned only for paid travel or Points Plus Pay - Flights (excluding for the avoidance of doubt any Classic Flight Rewards) on regular scheduled flights where the Qantas flight number or the flight number of the applicable oneworld Member Airline or Airline Partner is shown on the Itinerary ('Eligible Flight').​

This implies that it's not until the eligible flight is paid for does it become eligible.

Under the Conditions of Carriage it states:
4. Reservations
4.1 Making a Reservation
A reservation for a flight is made when recorded as accepted and confirmed by us or an Authorised Agent. We or our Authorised Agent will provide you with written confirmation of your reservation.​

We do not accept any responsibility for any loss you may incur if you make arrangements for travel on Qantas through anyone other than Qantas or its Authorised Agent.​

Unless the OP received written confirmation from Qantas's Agent (ie his/her TA) then the Reservation is not valid or accepted by Qantas

Given that - although the term appears commonly throughout the T&Cs - there is no definition that I can find for "booking" then this is as good as it gets from Qantas.

The caveat here is that I'm no lawyer. However, given the information Qantas publish, this "man on the number 4 omnibus" would certainly side with the OP. I can too see Qantas's point however it does not seem to sit with their own published conditions unless the offer T&Cs says differently.

Regards,

BD
This is saying that only paid travel - not free travel - will accrue points. Nothing to do with the booking or payment timelines. This would, for the avoidance of doubt, indicate that if you were on a ‘free’ flight, you won’t get points or SCs.

Reservation = booking, So it is relevant that the booking date is the date the PNR is created. In the OP’s case this was May 7.

I think the vast majority of the general public accept ‘booking’ is when you make the reservation, and is not attached to payment. Plenty of folk say they have ‘booked’ their hotel, even though they don’t pay until arrival. Same with flights.
 

RichardMEL

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I understand the angst but I agree with the notion that the booking was created outside of the period and QF are quite right to refuse by going by the book. Now TTR has a valid point that a sympathetic or customer focused CS agent would see the "human" side of it and apply the DP as a good will thing because it seems clear the intent was there.

And actually being an experienced traveller should mean the OP should probably have known this that the reservation was made on May 7 even if they did not fully pay for it until the 13th or whatever.

As noted earlier this sort of thing has been used by many to advantage in the past....
 

trippin_the_rift

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I understand the angst but I agree with the notion that the booking was created outside of the period and QF are quite right to refuse by going by the book. Now TTR has a valid point that a sympathetic or customer focused CS agent would see the "human" side of it and apply the DP as a good will thing because it seems clear the intent was there.

And actually being an experienced traveller should mean the OP should probably have known this that the reservation was made on May 7 even if they did not fully pay for it until the 13th or whatever.

As noted earlier this sort of thing has been used by many to advantage in the past....
You can't fly with a reservation.
You need a ticket.

If you had 100 people in a room and asked them what 'date' the 'booking' was made, I bet >50% would say at the time of payment.

See, confusing!
 
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RichardMEL

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yes.. as I noted.. to the letter of the T&C QF are "correct".. to the spirit of it.. well that's a grey area.

It works the other way.. think of all those people booking for some promotion that ends at midnight and they make the booking at say 11:45pm orlater but they payment isn't actually processed till the day after.. They'e OK because hey the booking was made prior to midnight. Swings and roundabouts.

To me "holding" a reservation is saying you probably want to keep that booking and pay for it.. or whatever QF allowing payment via BPay and other non instant(ie CC) payment methods? Swings amd roundabouts.

Again... letter of the "law" QF were right to deny it. The "pub test" as you say probably be a bit grey. I can see both sides.

I certainly wouldn't be fighting it if it was me because I know that yep the PNR was created outside of the eligibility period for the promo. Unfortunate and annoying but that's the facts.
 

MEL_Traveller

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You can't fly with a reservation.
You need a ticket.

If you had 100 people in a room and asked them what 'date' the 'booking' was made, I bet >50% would say at the time of payment.

See, confusing!
See I would take the opposite of this. I'd say 100% would say it was at the time they communicated their needs and the flights were booked/held/reserved. This may or may not include payment.

People say they 'booked their hotel' even though there is no payment. People say they went to a travel agent and 'booked their flights', even though they may not have to pay there and then. Or they 'booked a cruise' even though full payment and no ticket has been issued (although they may have paid a deposit). But they would all think the seats/rooms/cabins are 'theirs' at the time of booking.

People make a booking at a restaurant without payment. But the booking still exists.

The Qantas conditions of carriage clarify the difference between reservation and payment at 4.3:

4.3 Ticketing Time
Once you make a reservation, you or someone on your behalf must pay for the Ticket before the specified ticketing time, as advised by us or an Authorised Agent. That time may be the time of making the reservation or later. If payment is not received by us on or before the specified ticketing time, or is received but subsequently reversed, we may cancel your reservation.
 

GoldCanyon340

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If you had 100 people in a room and asked them what 'date' the 'booking' was made, I bet >50% would say at the time of payment.

See, confusing!
Depends on their experience with the airline industry though I'd say.

Ask 100 people about the difference between nonstop and direct flights and most would scratch their heads or say there isn't a difference. Even more confusing, but it doesn't mean there isn't a difference between the two.
 

ftm

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Feb 19, 2011
Messages
580
There is nothing stopping me creating a PNR in January and then adding a flight reservation into that same PNR in October, 10 months later. So the PNR creation date is not necessarily the booking date.

The confusion here is that QF Frequent Flyer are calling it a booking date, which isn’t a term that really exists in the industry. We have PNR creation date, we have reservation date (the date the segment was added to the PNR) and we have date of issue (the date the ticket was issued). We don’t have a booked date.

Which is why everyone has a differing opinion - because the term ‘booked date’ was created by frequent flyer for the purposes of their T&Cs, but in a sales sense, it isn’t defined.
 

MEL_Traveller

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There is nothing stopping me creating a PNR in January and then adding a flight reservation into that same PNR in October, 10 months later. So the PNR creation date is not necessarily the booking date.

The confusion here is that QF Frequent Flyer are calling it a booking date, which isn’t a term that really exists in the industry. We have PNR creation date, we have reservation date (the date the segment was added to the PNR) and we have date of issue (the date the ticket was issued). We don’t have a booked date.

Which is why everyone has a differing opinion - because the term ‘booked date’ was created by frequent flyer for the purposes of their T&Cs, but in a sales sense, it isn’t defined.
If QF doesn't define it i think it is fair to use the common usage and definition.

'Booking' is defined as:

  • an act of reserving accommodation, a ticket, etc. in advance.

'Reservations' have their own section in the Qantas conditions of carriage:

4.1 Making a Reservation
A reservation for a flight is made when recorded as accepted and confirmed by us or an Authorised Agent. We or our Authorised Agent will provide you with written confirmation of your reservation.
We do not accept any responsibility for any loss you may incur if you make arrangements for travel on Qantas through anyone other than Qantas or its Authorised Agent.
4.2 Specified Reservation
You will not be allowed to travel if you do not have a Ticket for a specified reservation, in a specified class of service and on a specified date and flight.
4.3 Ticketing Time
Once you make a reservation, you or someone on your behalf must pay for the Ticket before the specified ticketing time, as advised by us or an Authorised Agent. That time may be the time of making the reservation or later. If payment is not received by us on or before the specified ticketing time, or is received but subsequently reversed, we may cancel your reservation.
 

trippin_the_rift

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There is nothing stopping me creating a PNR in January and then adding a flight reservation into that same PNR in October, 10 months later. So the PNR creation date is not necessarily the booking date.

The confusion here is that QF Frequent Flyer are calling it a booking date, which isn’t a term that really exists in the industry. We have PNR creation date, we have reservation date (the date the segment was added to the PNR) and we have date of issue (the date the ticket was issued). We don’t have a booked date.

Which is why everyone has a differing opinion - because the term ‘booked date’ was created by frequent flyer for the purposes of their T&Cs, but in a sales sense, it isn’t defined.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS
 

PineappleSkip

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4.1 A reservation for a flight is made when recorded as accepted and confirmed by us or an Authorised Agent. We or our Authorised Agent will provide you with written confirmation of your reservation.
This doesn’t look ambiguous to me. It doesn’t even say it is made when PAX is provided with the confirmation. I think most would read ‘reservation’ as synonymous to ‘booking’. Best of luck to OP with pursuing remedies but it seems to me T&Cs are against you.

Most ‘held’ reservations I’ve received from agents have shown with flights appearing as confirmed, occasionally with alternative waitlisted flights as well. This can be long before payment and ticketing. I can often select seats off these unticketed things using the PNR, or get the agent to select seats. A specified seat on a specified plane with these details marked ‘confirmed’ looks like a booking to me.

Also mostly use unticketed bookings to get visas, sometimes dummy bookings for visa purposes. Little alternative if you have a meeting very soon but no certainty of the date, and you have to be there. Suppose some countries might knock these back because they don’t have ticket number on them, but been lucky so far.

Cheers skip
 
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Quickstatus

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I agree that booking/reservation was made prior to the DP offer. A booking creates a PNR in the system. That it was finalised, confirmed, paid and ticketed later is irrelevant.

It’s not really even the TA’s fault - as the booking was made before any DP offer.

In order to get a price quote, a booking needs to be created and held which protects the price and conditions for a certain period of time.

I side with the airline here
 

trippin_the_rift

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Ultimately -

The OP feels cheated.

Emotions are the #1 motivator for passengers buying airline tickets with one airline vs another.
Feeling cheated is a powerful emotion.

So, even if the OP is 'wrong' - Qantas will lose business, because, it's not up to Qantas to how others perceive marketing material.
 

Quickstatus

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Technically Qantas are correct.

Would it hurt them to make a goodwill gesture to a Platinum FF and offer the points as a one-off, keep the customer happy while they learn a lesson?

Of course not.
Agreed. Though once a gesture is made, others then expect the same.

Just a reminder that the colour of the metal is just the indication of the FF’s loyalty to the airline - and it is non reciprocal. Additionally the airline’s appreciation of that loyalty is narrowly defined within the 4 borders of the FF T&C. Nothing more.
 

33kft

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If you had 100 people in a room and asked them what 'date' the 'booking' was made, I bet >50% would say at the time of payment.
Have you thought this through? The specific scenario here is a travel agent making the flight booking within the double point promo period. If you want to define the booking date as the day the travel agent pays for the reserved PNR, and they batch that payment for their convenience when they remit to the airline, you're now potentially leaving a customer with what they believe to be a booking (it shows under "manage my bookings" on the site, has a reservation number in the form of a PNR, they can select a seat if they have that privilege) and yet you may be paying for it outside of the booking period.

Your definition might benefit the OP in this one individual case, but it's a stretch to suggest that the TA remittance to the airline is the true booking date or that it would benefit customers if it were interpreted that way.
 

maia200

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I had exactly the same thing occur when I booked a trip to London last year. It was for double status credits promotion but was not given to me because the travel agents had held the ticket for me the day before. Although actually confirmed and paid for in the time period Qantas required. I spoke to Qantas and they explained the same thing to me.There was no use in me arguing that fact I thought.
 

albatross710

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I'm with he OP, based on what seems fair.

I also give mind to the formation of a 'contract'. Offer, Acceptance and Consideration. The consideration was paid within the period of the QF offer and therefore meets the time requirements.

The OP is being batted away by the first level of defence at the QF call centre. In the same way that the operators at Tower Life (now TAL) were told to initially deny all insurance claims, the QF guidance is misplaced.
 

opusman

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The consideration was paid within the period of the QF offer and therefore meets the time requirements.
The time requirements of the offer are quite specific and relate only to the time the booking is made.
 

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