Qantas denies double points due to definition of "booking" | Australian Frequent Flyer
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Qantas denies double points due to definition of "booking"

natti668

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Jun 24, 2016
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Well, it's not the first time Qantas have done me out of points, but it's the last time I'm taking it lying down.

After registering on May 8 2019 for Double Points, I booked flights on May 13, departed on May 14 and off I went on a work trip to Chile.

Curiously, the double points were not credited to my account. This not being the first time I had an issue I contacted the "customer service", in emphatic quotations mars, team.

I received the standard reply that points can take 8 weeks to show up so hold tight.

I marked 8 weeks in my diary and waited.

8 weeks came and went with no action, so I reached out again. And this is where it all got very pathetic.

Qantas has refused to honour my double points registration because they claim I booked tickets on May 7, prior to the commencement of the double points promo.

I have showed them confirmations from the agent that it was booked on May 13, that I paid on May 13, that it was ticketed on May 13 - anything and everything with May 13 on the title.

Still, they say, no dice.

Apparently the agent had enquired and held flights on May 7 - before the promo began - a good 12 HOURS before. I pointed out that "holding" is not "booking", ie, I can't travel with a held flight. I can't get a ticket for a held flight, and I certainly can't guarantee the price of a held flight, as evidenced by the change in ticket price by the time I paid on the 13th.

Yet again, no love.

So here I am, 23 years of membership with Qantas, a Platinum flyer, and being told that I am not eligible for 22,000 points - not even status credits, which I would understand them being more priggish about - because they define "booking" as the date your agent holds a flight, regardless of whether you pay for it or not.

Apparently, according to Qantas, I should tell my agent to cancel all held flights and start from scratch next time, because Qantas has their own definition of "booking" which apparently means you don't need to pay, have a ticket, or even a confirmation.

Honestly, is there anyone who has ever been made to feel like a human being by Qantas and not just a cash cow?

I recently did a status match with Virgin and I think I'll put all my FF eggs in that basket for the next 12 months.

What a joke, you greedy greedy monsters.
 

mrsterryn

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Did you buy the held ticket ? The one that was held on May 7th?
 

TheInsider

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Nothing to do with being greedy monsters, it's got to do with the booking creation date. The PNR creation date was the 7th of May. You have misplaced anger sorry.

This is a little relevant.
What happens if I cancel or change my eligible booking?
Full or part travel of an itinerary is eligible only if you book (regardless of payment date) and travel within the promotional dates.
The booking was made on the 7th.

Apparently, according to Qantas, I should tell my agent to cancel all held flights and start from scratch next time, because Qantas has their own definition of "booking" which apparently means you don't need to pay, have a ticket, or even a confirmation.
I know you don't care, but TA's can have different rules in regards to ticketing time limits and payments. But yes, you would have to get your agent to cancel all 'held' bookings and make them create a new PNR to be eligible for any promo.
 
Last edited:

Isochronous

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Need to double check the definition of "booking" in the promo T&Cs but I would be surprised if there was a specific exclusion for 'held' flights in the way that you describe. This is definitely worth fighting and you should get the ACA involved.
 

dajop

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I can sort of see why Qantas are taking this view, but it may depend on transparency of their definition of what constitutes a booking. But standard industry definition includes holding flights for you, standard way of doing this is by making a booking in your name, in fare class that doesn't require instant ticketing. Whether your proceed to ticketing is a different matter. Customer focussed organisations probably would throw you a bone though. But Qantas doesn't need to. It's got market power, especially in the loyalty space.
 
Last edited:

mrsterryn

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But by 'holding' the ticket you are being protected from price increases. That is my understanding.
So as far as Qantas is concerned your ticket "shelf life " so to speak started on the 7th prior to the commencement of the promotion I would have thought .

I wonder what the ticket would have cost had you cancelled and rebooked post registering for the promotion ?
 

opusman

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A "held" flight is a booking for all intents and purposes. If you pay it gets ticketed and if you don't pay it gets cancelled but as soon as you put a flight on hold a PNR is created and a reservation made. Otherwise what's stopping them selling the seat to someone else?
 

mrsterryn

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Is it fair and reasonable that an average punter should know that the date the ticket is "held" is considered the booking date? I don't think so, unless it is made clear in the promo T&Cs.
I actually think yes they would. In one way because they know their booking is held for them and they can 'cancel' without a cost prior to finalisation.
However in this situation the OP is not a novice. They have self declared being a Qantas traveller for 23 years and platinum
OP if you are Lifetime Gold you will still have the advantage of comparable Oneworld benefits .
Sounds like you have a distinct advantage in being able to accumulate in another programme :)
 

JohnPhelan

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There is actually no such thing as a "held" reservation - it is simply an unpaid and unticketed booking. The agent makes a booking at the time and a PNR is generated.

This protects the passenger (and the agent) against any fare increase. This has been the way travel agents have worked for decades.

What has confused the issue is that, now that most people make most of their own bookings - which require payment at the time of booking - they assume that the booking isn't actually made until the time of payment and issuance of the ticket. That is how internet-based travel arrangements are processed, but not agent-based bookings, which are - and always have been - quite different. The booking is made when the reservation is created.

The OP's beef is actually with their agent, not with Qantas. The agent - if they were aware of the DSC element in play - should have made it quite clear that the booking which they had created would not be eligible for DSC. Unless, of course, the OP never mentioned the DSC issue to the agent, in which case ..........
 

JohnPhelan

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because Qantas has their own definition of "booking" which apparently means you don't need to pay, have a ticket, or even a confirmation.
The definition of "booking" used in the airline industry worldwide is the creation of a PNR. Which, in your case, occurred when you got the agent to "hold" the flights. If your agent didn't explain that the only way they can "hold" flights is to create a booking, then your argument is with your agent, not Qantas.
 

Kangol

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The OP's beef is actually with their agent, not with Qantas. The agent - if they were aware of the DSC element in play - should have made it quite clear that the booking which they had created would not be eligible for DSC. Unless, of course, the OP never mentioned the DSC issue to the agent, in which case ..........
Too bad it's about double points, not SC..
 

juddles

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.......
However in this situation the OP is not a novice. They have self declared being a Qantas traveller for 23 years and platinum
....
Very true. Maybe. The only other post the OP has made was three years ago when they were trying to seek advice on how to convince Qantas to grant them WP even though they had not got the required SC. Various members offered advice there but no further input from the OP other than the opening post.

I understand the OP's perspective that they thought that they were eligible for the double points, even though they were not. Tickets are a very complicated thing, even for experienced travellers. And disappointment always hurts.

But good luck jumping to Virgin if your work trips are to Chile.......
 

trippin_the_rift

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I'm totally siding with the OP if it's exactly as displayed.

OP acted in good faith.
OP is a loyal member and their behaviour influenced by the promotion.
OP is not a once a year flyer, but a high-value Platinum member.
How the hell is the average person to know what booking creation and booking paid and booking whatever dates mean?
Cost to the airline on customer service time may be higher than to just award the points to the OP.

Now, here's the part that gets me. Immigration in many countries requires passengers to have an 'exit flight' prior to being allowed to fly into that country. A PNR won't count as a 'booked flight' for this purpose. Only the ticket number will suffice, because, at that point, it's a ticket and not a reservation. With that logic in mind, it's the ticketed date that matters.

There is no way a normal person would be able to understand what a booking creation date is versus whatever else Qantas defines as 'eligible booking'.
Just because Qantas staff might understand the technical detail (and it make perfect sense to them) DOES NOT mean it should make perfect sense to you.

They work in the airline industry and understand all the airline terminology and jargon. You don't.
The wording needs to be clear and simple so non-airline industry people understand. They failed to meet that obligation.

I wish more companies would just 'do the right thing' and not be nitty picky on technicalities that only industry folks understand. Sometimes, even if you're technically or legally in the right - you can be in the wrong from the perspective of your customer. Companies...people... that step up and do the right thing and advocate on behalf of their customers are the ones who succeed in the world.

Keep on fighting @natti668. You will get the points.
 
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bsb

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I know it feels like the OP is being hard done by, but a booking is a booking, paid or not.

I’m not chasing points or SC’s but I recently made a ‘booking’, or as the OP called it ‘held a flight’ (another airline). The price changed unbeknown to me and was less. Luckily I was able to cancel that booking and I came out in front. I’m a seasoned traveller and didn’t really know generating a PNR was in fact the booking but in hindsight it does make sense for all the reasons stated above. For me it worked out in my favour but I now understand the rules of the game better.

I’m sorry OP but I think your anger is misguided, your TA is at fault here (assuming you told them).
 

BD1959

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There are some interesting clauses on the QFF T&Cs I'm surprised no-one has mentioned:

9.3.1 Subject to the exclusions in clauses 9.3.2 and 9.4, Qantas Points for air travel may be earned only for paid travel or Points Plus Pay - Flights (excluding for the avoidance of doubt any Classic Flight Rewards) on regular scheduled flights where the Qantas flight number or the flight number of the applicable oneworld Member Airline or Airline Partner is shown on the Itinerary ('Eligible Flight').​

This implies that it's not until the eligible flight is paid for does it become eligible.

Under the Conditions of Carriage it states:
4. Reservations
4.1 Making a Reservation
A reservation for a flight is made when recorded as accepted and confirmed by us or an Authorised Agent. We or our Authorised Agent will provide you with written confirmation of your reservation.​

We do not accept any responsibility for any loss you may incur if you make arrangements for travel on Qantas through anyone other than Qantas or its Authorised Agent.​

Unless the OP received written confirmation from Qantas's Agent (ie his/her TA) then the Reservation is not valid or accepted by Qantas

Given that - although the term appears commonly throughout the T&Cs - there is no definition that I can find for "booking" then this is as good as it gets from Qantas.

The caveat here is that I'm no lawyer. However, given the information Qantas publish, this "man on the number 4 omnibus" would certainly side with the OP. I can too see Qantas's point however it does not seem to sit with their own published conditions unless the offer T&Cs says differently.

Regards,

BD
 

downgraded

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Your first two sentences in 4.1 don't say that you have to have received confirmation of your reservation before the booking is considered confirmed. The agent can record the reservation as accepted, subsequently they provide you with written confirmation, which given it's a non-guaranteed/confirmed delivery mechanism means it could get lost in the ether anyway.

The agent is the one the beef is with, but unless the OP said they needed the booking to be after a certain date, then the agent did the right thing by the OP and made the "provisional" booking when requested to reserve the carriage.
 

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