Ok, I was *REALLY* unhappy at Velocity (re: Partner Gold issues)

[nlagalle]

I can't understand this.. That's a lot more flying to get PG.

Not that I'll fly VA enough to get PG, but if I was I'd be annoyed by this faux paus..

 

[connieguy]

Re: Ok, now i'm *REALLY* annoyed at Velocity (re: Partner Gold sneakiness)

I think we should wait for clarification on this one. I *think* it means 1500 providing you are eligible for platinum not 1500 on top of but we should wait and see i guess. I think VA will get back to us next week on this.

The current VA web site is very clear.

1,500 ADDITIONAL SCs to earn PG which is worth 500 SC initially or 400 SC to retain.

The Review Date reset at 800 SCs show this was not clearly thought out.

 

[777]

After several weeks of checking every day or two my wife is using a lot of caps in Google chat right now:

GOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLDDDDDD!!!!

I think that means thanks to the swift intervention of "Velocity Frequent Flyer" my wife now has partner gold. Regardless of what the issues turn out to be in the long term, i really appreciate his efforts and also the fact that they honoured the commitment originally (and potentially incorrectly) given to me on the phone by the platinum call centre a couple of weeks back. I can fault some of the confusion around all this but i can't fault the efforts they've made once drawn to his attention. My sincere thanks.

 

[777]

Re: Ok, now i'm *REALLY* annoyed at Velocity (re: Partner Gold sneakiness)

The current VA web site is very clear.

I think the web site is clear as mud! Depends which page you read.

 

[connieguy]

I think that means thanks to the swift intervention of "Velocity Frequent Flyer" my wife now has partner gold. Regardless of what the issues turn out to be in the long term, i really appreciate his efforts and also the fact that they honoured the commitment originally (and potentially incorrectly) given to me on the phone by the platinum call centre a couple of weeks back. I can fault some of the confusion around all this but i can't fault the efforts they've made once drawn to his attention. My sincere thanks.

Like you I do trust VA will see they have got this very wrong and will quickly fix it or very few VA WPs will spend the money to earn 3 times the SCs they needed to retain WP. People are not stupid and companies do make errors.

 

[nlagalle]

Like you I do trust VA will see they have got this very wrong and will quickly fix it or very few VA WPs will spend the money to earn 3 times the SCs they needed to retain WP. People are not stupid and companies do make errors.

Judging by the reply from the VA rep, that is how it is set and will stay.. Remember the calculation of SC based on trip and not legs???

 

[connieguy]

Re: Ok, now i'm *REALLY* annoyed at Velocity (re: Partner Gold sneakiness)

I think the web site is clear as mud! Depends which page you read.

You are right, it is a mess. At least VA and VFF now know they have a problem. I do trust them to sort this out, but with caution as how they sorted out the SC earn table on tickets with multiple, in the end we lost and they enacted a system (SC earn based on point to point mileage) that is worst than what QF offers (sector based).

 

[connieguy]

Judging by the reply from the VA rep, that is how it is set and will stay.. Remember the calculation of SC based on trip and not legs???

Well if that is so, they will see very few PGs. At 2,300 SC (1,500 SCs plus a 800 SC WP retain), that is very expensive. However like you I do expect they will fix up the T&C to reflect what VFF disclosed.

I would also not expect VA SC pooling to fix this as VA may discount the SCs value transferred into the family pooling system.

 

[leemin]

I don't understand why it's 'additional'.

In a 12 month rolling period:
You get Silver at 200
Gold at 500
Plat at 1000

No resets in there. At least that's my understanding. You have to requalify on the anniversary of the day you reached your highest status, or lose it.

So why not just continue that pattern?:

"...
Plat at 1000
PG at 2500
PP at 3000"

The above would actually make sense to people and would be a standard calculation.

However, I'm a +1 to previous comments that those levels are crazy.

Once family pooling starts, they'd be better off using the pool to get status in their own right.

 

[connieguy]

I don't understand why it's 'additional'.

Status tier level is based on a rolling 12 month SC total.

PG and PP is based on the 12 months SC earn since you obtained or retained WP.

So you need to first earn 1,000 / 800 SC based on your 12 month SC balance.

Then you need to earn another 1,500 SCs from the date you obtained / retained WP (your tier year). When you obtain / retain WP, your tier year SC is set to zero.

So you need to earn 800 SCs to retain WP (in the last 12 months) and then another 1,500 in the next 12 months of your tier year to get PG plus another 800 SCs to retain your WP status.

Confused? Join the group. We all are. This can't work and VA / VFF has retired to rethink but don't hold your breath.

 

[connieguy]

Once family pooling starts, they'd be better off using the pool to get status in their own right.

You are assuming that SC will post to the SC pooling system at 1:1. What happens if they are discounted to a lower value?

 

[777]

I don't understand why it's 'additional'. .. Once family pooling starts, they'd be better off using the pool to get status in their own right.

Yes, the more i think about it there's a logical breakdown in here somewhere OR family pooling will involve some heavy reductions in the value of SCs.

Logically, the way i had assumed it was that in any one 12 month period you earned this:

The "rolling" system (TRS)

250 Silver
500 Gold
1000 Platinum
1500 Platinum + Gold for other nominee
2000 Platinum + Platinum for other nominee.

That seemed fairly reasonable, simple to understand AND it seems entirely consistent with a family pooling arrangement where effectively you can add your SCs together and get separate benefits. However that is what i was thought i was doing when i clocked up my 1500 SCs and it turns out i was wrong.

Based on today's discussions and the way i would read their T&Cs (the bits that selectively make sense for me) is that all of the above is broadly correct BUT you must start the process afresh when you first become platinum. eg. The first time you hit platinum the clock goes down to zero and the date resets resulting in ...

The 12 month platinum's challenge (TTMPC)

0 Newly earned platinum = SC count sets to 0 and clock sets to minus 12 months THEN
200 Retain Silver (ignoring soft landings here!)
400 Retain Gold
800 Retain Platinum (count keeps ticking at this point as the Plat status earned is for NEXT year)
1500 Partner Gold
2000 Partner Platinum

The two key differences are 1. That the clock goes back to zero when you first become platinum and 2. The date also goes back to zero so any SCs you have earned are reset and it is based on your membership year not a rolling 12 months. This will not be an issue in future years as the SC reset will take place whenever you hit platinum the first time but it is a big issue right now for those of us who have more than 1000 and less than 1500/ 2000 SCs and time still remaining in what we thought was our membership year.

If that is how it is supposed to work (and i think/ hope it is) then there should be some kind of transitional arrangement for what gowatson describes as "orphaned" status credits. You could either simply lop off anything above 1000 and put it onto the next year's account or accept that for the first year only that the SCs to the end of what either would have been your status year or on a rolling basis will be counted.

Now, the other alternative (worst case) scenario that people seem to fear is this:

The 12 month platinum challenge with extra degree of difficulty (TTMPCWEDOD)

0 Newly earned platinum = SC count sets to 0 and clock sets to minus 12 months THEN
200 Retain Silver
400 Retain Gold
800 Retain Platinum (for some inexplicable reason the clock keeps ticking at this point although the date of platinum is reset)
2300 Partner Gold
2800 Partner Platinum

There are so many problems with this that i don't know where to start but the most obvious one is that assuming that there is some kind of family pooling at work high status flyers actually get absolutely no benefit relative to two people earning their SCs separately. It may help someone who is on 380 SCs with a partner on 140 get one or the other to gold more easily BUT once you get above qualifying or requalifying for platinum it actually starts to work against you. It has no benefit - it is all downside and no upside and in my opinion any loyalty program should have increasing and not diminishing benefits for being loyal.

Anyhow. A long brain dump. Just needed to try and think that aloud!

 

[oz_mark]

After reading the T&C's today when this issue came up, I believe that TTMPC is the system in use (basically)

Prior to today I would have said TRS.

I do not believe that it is TTMPCWEDOD.

 

[connieguy]

After reading the T&C's today when this issue came up, I believe that TTMPC is the system in use (basically)

Prior to today I would have said TRS.

I do not believe that it is TTMPCWEDOD.

VFF needs to get back to us once they have digested the stuff that has been created here. I do remember the SC mess and the 1st then 2nd attempt and then the 3rd solution that delivered SCs earn on multiple sector flights worst that what QF deliver. We sucked / wore that and moved forward. But do not expect that to continue.

VFF, with all respect and I do mean that, fully understand that if to get VA PG, a VA WP needs to earn 2,300 VA SC in their tier year or 3 times what a VA WP needs to retain VA WP, you will lose, IMHO, a lot of credibility and business. Just like QF when they coughked / took for granted their WP and we voted with our spend and moved to VA, we may do the same and move again.

JB and the other VA FFer program managers, you really do need to step back and reconsider what you have done here.

Here is what you currently say on your web site:
Platinum Membership | Velocity Frequent Flyer



It does not say those PG SC are additional to those needed to retain WP. Change it if you will but you will break the contract you have enter into with ALL your WPs. Do you really want to PI$$ off your new WPs and face possible legal challenges for loss of benefits?

 

[oz_mark]

It does not say those PG SC are additional to those needed to retain WP. Change it if you will but you will break the contract you have enter into with ALL your WPs. Do you really want to PI$$ off your new WPs and face possible legal challenges for loss of benefits?

The way read the T&C's.

When you first get Platinum, your benefit period starts from that day, and there is a review date set for 12 months later. Your benefit period starts from the day you make platinum.

From that date, you need to get an additional 1500 SC to get partner gold. If you achieve that, you will also have achieved retaining Platinum, as when your review date comes around, you will be in excess of 800 SC. You then restart for the new benefit period.

So while it is additional on top of gaining Platinum, it is not an additional 1500 on top of regaining!


As for the comments on the review dates.

There are basically two reviews:

Daily: This review checks to see if you have gone up a level
Annually: This review checks to see if you have maintains a level.

 

[connieguy]

The way read the T&C's.

When you first get Platinum, your benefit period starts from that day, and there is a review date set for 12 months later. Your benefit period starts from the day you make platinum.

From that date, you need to get an additional 1500 SC to get partner gold. If you achieve that, you will also have achieved retaining Platinum, as when your review date comes around, you will be in excess of 800 SC. You then restart for the new benefit period.

So while it is additional on top of gaining Platinum, it is not an additional 1500 on top of regaining!

As for the comments on the review dates.

There are basically two reviews:

Daily: This review checks to see if you have gone up a level
Annually: This review checks to see if you have maintains a level.

That is not what the T&C says:

Review Date means the date 12 months after the date on which you earn sufficient Status Credits to:

(a) be upgraded to a new Membership Level;

or

(b) maintain your current Membership Level.​

So every time you hit 800 SCs your review date resets to the current date + 12 months and your tier year starts again with 0 SCs.


Your Total Benefits Period is defines as:

Total Benefit Period means the 12 month period from the Review Date.

Which is the 12 months from the Review Date (which is 12 months past the date you made WP) or 12 to 24 months into the future. ????


The PG and PP benefits are defined as:

14.20 When a Platinum Member earns 1,500 Status Credits in one Total Benefit Period {12 to 24 months past your Review Date..GW}, the Member is entitled to redeem a Membership upgrade to Gold Membership, for a family member or friend who is a Member (Companion Gold Membership).

14.21 When a Platinum Member earns 2,000 Status Credits in one Total Benefit Period, their nominated Companion Gold Member will automatically be upgraded to Platinum Membership (Companion Platinum Membership). If they haven’t nominated a Companion Gold Member, then they are entitled to nominate a Companion Platinum Member.

Your 12 month yearly SC earn has very little to do with earning the 1,500 with-in the Total Benefit Period, with is currently impossible as the Review Date and Total Benefit Period resets to the current date as soon as you earn 800 SCs.

Yes it is a mess and needs to be fixed. ASAP.

 

[oz_mark]

That is not what the T&C says:



So every time you hit 800 SCs your review date resets to the current date and your year starts again with 0 SCs.

Nyet. That would be happening everyday. But:

Daily Status Review is the daily assessment of a Member’s Status Credit balance for an upgrade to their Membership Level based on their Status Credits balance.

So, on a daily basis, you are checked to see if you get an upgrade. You are not checked daily to see if you have maintained status

Review Date means the date 12 months after the date on which you earn sufficient Status Credits to:

(a) be upgraded to a new Membership Level; or
(b) maintain your current Membership Level.

​

On the review date, which is 12 months after you attained a status, you are checked to see if you have maintained status.

Also this:

Daily Status Review

8.6 With Velocity Frequent Flyer’s Daily Status Review, a Member is assessed daily for an upgrade to their membership level based on their Status Credit balance. A Member’s Status Credit balance is calculated based on the number of Status Credits earned in the previous 12 months.

Status Credits required to upgrade to a higher Membership Level


8.7 On any given day, if the total number of Status Credits earned during the previous 12 months meets the upgrade criteria in clause 8.12, you will be upgraded to that Membership Level for the Total Benefit Period.


Status Credits required to maintain a Membership Level


8.8 On each Review Date, if the total number of Status Credits earned during the previous 12 months meets the criteria in clause 8.12 to maintain the same Membership Level, then you will maintain that Membership Level for the Total Benefit Period after the Review Date.

As you are not checked daily for maintaining status, only on the review date, this is the only date that matters for maintaining status.


(Man I miss the days of endless meetings arguing over a minute detail in the implementation of a business rule :mrgreen

 

[connieguy]

Nyet. That would be happening everyday.

It has already happened:



The 20 SCs I earned in the last 12 months are not credited to what I need to earn to maintain WP. My Tier Year SCs (read 12 month Total Benefit Period from WP obtain date and not 12 month calendar year period) are zero as they were set to zero when my Total Benefit Period were reset to my WP earned date and my Review date to + 12 months from my WP earned date.

What I have described is what is happening.

 

[connieguy]

VFF these definitions on your T&C make no sense:

Review Date (RD) means the date 12 months after the date on which you earn sufficient Status Credits to:

(a) be upgraded to a new Membership Level; or
(b) maintain your current Membership Level.
​

So the RD is 12 months after the (a) upgrade or (b) maintain event date.


Total Benefit Period (TBP) means the 12 month period from the Review Date.

So the TBP is the period 12 to 24 months from the upgrade or maintain event date? Sorry VA but this make no sense. Here I assume the TBP should run for 12 months from the RD(a) or RD(b) event date above and not the stated 12 months from the RD? Maybe make the TBP period to be the 12 months BEFORE the Review date?

Not being critical, just trying to help sort out confusion in your T&Cs.

 

[awilcockson]

After reading the T&C's today when this issue came up, I believe that TTMPC is the system in use (basically)

Prior to today I would have said TRS.

I do not believe that it is TTMPCWEDOD.

But Mark, based on what VFF posted earlier, I believe that it IS TTMPCWEDOD!

Which is ridiculous. He clearly stated that the OP would be granted the PG based on the "initial" phone advice (which was TRS) even though the rules are actually TTMPCWEDOD ... or that's the way I read it anyway.

If there was one thing I'd ask Virgin to change on their program (other than getting spirits in the Lounge ) it would actually to be the removal of the rolling year for status, I think it actually makes things too confusing (having said that, in this case it might be a moot point, as I would assume that even with a set year you would still need 2300 SC to retain WP and gain PG).