I am over old staff

[dxwell]

A. Setting expectations.

It is ok to say "The way you are behaving is not meeting my expectations".

Humans respond to operant conditioning, we are little removed from animals. The vast majority of us behave in very constrained boundaries. However, it is boundaries that are often lacking (for all ages). If you're in PE, J, F, or R, you can rightly expect a standard of service as you are party to a transaction that says "I have paid for service above a certain standard".

If all travellers are confident to state their expectations and the boundaries therein, then the staff will respond accordingly.

Confrontation never works in this scenario. My wife is the master of such phrases as:
"I was expecting so much more"
"Is this an isolated event? I was told that the service was excellent on this flight".

The former Defence Chief David Hurley famously said "The standard you walk past is the standard you accept".

For the bleeding obvious: It is up to the passengers in PE, J, F and R to set the standard.

 

[Quickstatus]

For the bleeding obvious: It is up to the passengers in PE, J, F and R to set the standard.

What standard?

What if the passenger expectations are unrealistic?

 

[dxwell]

B. The potential of our experienced workforce.

One of my current projects is in the science field. We have a 50/50 split between a 25-40 year old cohort and a 50-70 cohort.
The younger cohort are impatient for change.
The older cohort are incredibly resistant to change.

The younger cohort envision a future with possibility, excitement, challenge and reward.
75% of the older cohort see the reward in the status quo. "A few more years of monitoring my super balance and I will be ok."
25% of the older cohort see "I can create a legacy in the next 5-10 years if I embrace change".

I'm sure this is reflected across many industries - it poses a great challenge for our workforce that will see a huge demographic shift in the workforce with the retirement of baby boomers.

The most distressing thing for me is that the older cohort are presented with the opportunity to be elders in their profession.
However, there are two key barriers to this "eldership":
1. Tolerance, patience, and respect for younger generations. I am seeing bigotry and ignorance from this cohort. These are not behaviours that create respect.
2. The pace of change has accelerated exponentially. Few of us will tolerate someone who can't use a computer. This is a severe challenge to the older cohort - where years of experience was the measure, ability to access knowledge is the new measure.

Anyhoo, the summary of my diatribe is:
1. The staff you are meeting on these flights are working from a position of severe insecurity.
2. Mainting a modicum of self-esteem may be the prime motivator for these staff.
3. The customer is always right. Customers need to reinforce to staff that the highest esteem is afforded when the customer is very happy.

There is an untapped -ism about how each of us need our identity justified, that all we have learned and experienced has counted for something. Much more than existentialism, there is a want for recognition that I, as an individual, matter.

 

[dxwell]

I'd like to give 50% writing credit to a very delicious 2016 Tempranillo from Gapstead Wines.

 

[dxwell]

What standard?

What if the passenger expectations are unrealistic?

Last week I worked with a client on how we can get realistic reporting.
We talked about a normal distribution and how on each end there would be skewed data that we could choose to ignore.
We would focus on a "truncated mean" that represented the stats of the majority.

Normal distribution - Wikipedia

 

[dxwell]

What standard?

What if the passenger expectations are unrealistic?

One thing that works well for us when scoping out IT projects is to define the "Minimum viable product" (MVP). The MVP become the vital components of a product before it is accepted.

Can we get an MVP for PE, J, F, R travel?
Can someone setup a survey?

 

[Quickstatus]

Last week I worked with a client on how we can get realistic reporting.
We talked about a normal distribution and how on each end there would be skewed data that we could choose to ignore.
We would focus on a "truncated mean" that represented the stats of the majority.

Normal distribution - Wikipedia

So again where should the standard be set?
+4 SD
+6 SD?
Then if you do how do you know that the distribution is not going to Shift?
Then can you be sure that the what you are trying to measure can be modelled by a normal distrubution?. How do you know that the skewed data can be ignored?

I guess you know about Gambler's Fallacy...

......

One thing that works well for us when scoping out IT projects is to define the "Minimum viable product" (MVP). The MVP become the vital components of a product before it is accepted.

Who is setting the standard - the customer or the business??

....

Can we get an MVP for PE, J, F, R travel?

The take off to landing ratio is 1:1

 

[odysseus]

One thing that works well for us when scoping out IT projects is to define the "Minimum viable product" (MVP). The MVP become the vital components of a product before it is accepted.

Can we get an MVP for PE, J, F, R travel?
Can someone setup a survey?

I've always thought that was a terrible term.

Further, aiming for the minimum acceptable is unlikely to result in people actually being happy. You might accept something but that doesn't mean you think it is good.
Like a checkin agent handing you a ticket without saying anything is a minimum viable. But it's not going to win many plaudits.

 

[drron]

B. The potential of our experienced workforce.
The most distressing thing for me is that the older cohort are presented with the opportunity to be elders in their profession.
However, there are two key barriers to this "eldership":
1. Tolerance, patience, and respect for younger generations. I am seeing bigotry and ignorance from this cohort. These are not behaviours that create respect.
2. The pace of change has accelerated exponentially. Few of us will tolerate someone who can't use a computer. This is a severe challenge to the older cohort - where years of experience was the measure, ability to access knowledge is the new measure.

Well as a 71 year old still working in my profession am I allowed to say I see bigotry and ignorance in this answer.
In medicine when it comes to dealing with patients I find overwhelmingly patients expressing gratitude because I am talking to them and not always looking at my computer.I am sure that is the case with FAs in premium cabins as well.
As well I usually see respect,tolerance and patience towards our younger colleagues.Pretty well a universally accepted fact is that they have way more knowledge than we did at a similiar stage of our professional life.Dont know though if that is the same at QF.
And there are many instances in life where years of experience trump computer knowledge.As a mentor of mine said 50 years ago-"the only people who are sure they are always right are those that are very young or those that dont let their experiences get in their way.To my observances that is still true today.

But back to the topic.I see very similiar behaviours between young and old cabin staff.Some are lazy,some do a good job and a few are excellent.Sometimes I observe that the difference is due to the way the pax treats the FA.

 

[JohnK]

In my opinion the age of the staff is not relevant when comparing service levels.

I've come across some older staff who love their job and go out of their way to help.

And I've come across some younger staff who couldn't care less.

 

[Pleb Status]

I have found that on quality Asian airlines (SQ and CX for example), the older* FA in the upper classes generally provide the best service.

*older is relative as FA 'retire' at a much younger age on Asian airlines.

 

[serfty]

Perhaps SCL is a less desirable destination?

I think it's the opposite with nearly a 2 day slip time.

 

[TomVexille]

I think it's the opposite with nearly a 2 day slip time.

Which would make it unusual that FAs with no international experience would be getting the route.

 

[snabbu]

Agreed with your general feelings towards QF long haul juddles.
Unlike your regular route across to SCL, heading up and back to asia there are many non QF options with far superior service levels, imo.

 

[serfty]

Actually, with only three per week currently, the slip may be up to four days.

Which would make it unusual that FAs with no international experience would be getting the route.

I'm nore sure slip time being popular relates to international experience.

Those landing after the day flights from Oz to Asia only get around 20 hours before having to front up to be heading back.

It would seem to me the longer slips would be more popular.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There seem to be a few factors when it comes to picking routes... amount of per diem crew get (on other airlines it varies by route), the jet lag, the type of passengers.

 

[serfty]

FWIW, I have seen QF74 SFO-SYD often mentioned as a vehicle where such poor can be experienced more often for other flights with the reference putting it down to the slip's location.

 

[juddles]

Just want to be really clear that I am not anti-old people. I am anti-people who have been with the company so long they no longer care.

Yes, the thread title was provocative, and was possibly a mistake. Perhaps it should indeed have been more cautious, as the focus is on my beef with apparent seniority-induced problems, not specifically about age.

.....Maybe we need to introduce a scoring system. Every member of cabin crew starts with 5 'stars' and works for a year. Every passenger complaint they lose a star. Every customer compliment they gain a star. Your priority to bid for routes (at the end of the first year and onwards) depends on how many stars you have, not your seniority.

Mel_traveller, this is something I completely agree with. As far as ranking due to customer service enthusiasm. This, IMHO, should be able to be managed by the airline / supervisors. But the number of unfortunate experiences I have had leads me to my belief that (some) staff should have been weeded out a long time ago......

Well, as someone that regularly flies the same route @juddles is alluding to. SYD-SCL QF27/28, I can only give my experiences.

I do find that the staff 'tend' to be 40+ , but that never bothers me in any way. Often upon talking to them this seems to be the first long haul international they have done. Maybe that's juddles problem?

On that particular route, I have nothing but good service. Everyone has a bad day. If you compare to LATAM . who I also regularly fly, QF is winning hands down in comparison,

One bad egg, doesn't necessarily mean an awful omelette....

Boca, I agree and disagree. I truly think the BEST airline staff I have ever encountered anywhere on the planet have been "older" QF staff flying that same route. I mean spectacular people. Some of those QF27/28's have been the highlights of my flying experiences.

Which just makes me more angry why the good staff are let down by a system that doesn't seem to be fair. I have quite often seen one cabin member working enthusiastically the whole flight, while their off-sider sullenly wandered about doing bugger all.

As for the omelettes, I strenuously disagree. Just one bad egg DOES spoil an omelette. And my southern flights are like having to eat a couple of omelettes each month, (and BTW I love omelettes!), but every second or third one involves a really bad egg.

One thing that always strikes me in threads about FA ages (and POS weights) is the hyperbolic exaggeration.... "average age 60" Seriously?
Any evidence for that assertion? So..half in their fifties..and half in their 70's? Sure.

For the record, I am getting old. I have far crossed that line where I have more grey hairs than non-grey. So my description is based on my feeling they are even older than me

 

[Quickstatus]

We often choose Drs based on our rapport with them. Some of the best Drs have an atrocious “bedside” manner.

Cabin crew are better because they get a better review by passengers?

Pilots get more stars if passengers think ther landing is smooth?

Maybe we should introduce tips. That’s a sure way of getting better service?

The Uber star rating has been shown to be useless

I would rather cabin crew not smile when they don’t feel like smiling and the pilots make a hard landing than try to get a smooth one just for the sake of a star

 

[juddles]

We often choose Drs based on our rapport with them. Some of the best Drs have an atrocious “bedside” manner.

Cabin crew are better because they get a better review by passengers?

Pilots get more stars if passengers think ther landing is smooth?

Maybe we should introduce tips. That’s a sure way of getting better service?

The Uber star rating has been shown to be useless

I hear your concerns.

And even as I wrote the previous post, I thought that it would be horrible if smarmy crew only cared about the pax rating. Hence why I suggested that it should be supervisors that keep an eye on performance.

I know that customer service is only half a cabin crew member's role - the other half being management of the cabin and safety. But it is not impossible to get both.

My favorite doctor ever was a South African bloke. He had a truly atrocious bedside manner. But he was, IMHO, very good, and I thought he was great. But be careful what we are comparing here. To use your analogy, and blending it with the topic of this thread, then the "best" doctor is the one who has most seniority, who has worked for longer. Would you like to be forced to see the doctor who was oldest or had the most years practicing? This is what effectively it appears QF do. You, as a pax, get no choice. The "doctor" you get is there based on service time, nothing else.