I am over old staff

[juddles]

Pop corn in hand. Bum in sofa!!

This is pop-corn friendly, as it involves certain prejudices / political correctness. Those make it a popcorn session.

I just want good staff. And in my opinion it is true that older staff get comfortable, secure in their jobs, and deliver absolute cough pax-experiences.

 

[Matt_01]

I just want good staff. And in my opinion it is true that older staff get comfortable, secure in their jobs, and deliver absolute cough pax-experiences.

This is the same across number of industries where long time staff become can become a burden to an organisation, I have seen it in the private and public sector and customer and internal facing roles.

I travel a fair bit, well a lot, these days nothing much phases me, however I can get annoyed when staff are rude or service is particularly bad.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But in "premium" airlines such as QF, Y pax are barely more than a break-even exercise - it is premium cabins that actually generate profit. But due to labour constraints it seems to me that QF is hamfisted and suffers terrible premium-cabin pax experiences. This is surely bad for the airline, long term.

I think staffing issues are an airline issue, not a seniority issue. Some airlines seem to have a greater percentage of staff who feel 'entitled' to turn up to work grumpy and not give a rat's about their impact on passengers. Australia isn't very good at performance management in the workplace.

You look at SQ where performance management goes to the other extreme, and it's very rare you'll ever get a crew on a 'bad' day.

As an aside - are we actually sure about the first part? If Japan Airlines and Finnair can offer Australia to Europe for $717 return, and if we assume that is not being sold at a loss - that means the likes of QF charging $1400 must be making a pretty penny even off economy class. Agree premium cabins generate far more profit than economy. But not sure eco is only 'break even'.

 

[RooFlyer]

Goodness, avoid UA then! I flew them in F Transpacific, admittedly a few years ago and first dinkum, I'm sure if there was an emergency i'd be assisting them!

Very senior, very unmotivated and not with it. I wrote about it here ( check out the return flight comments) SYD to Alaska in UA First to see the bears

 

[burmans]

This is the same across number of industries where long time staff become can become a burden to an organisation, I have seen it in the private and public sector and customer and internal facing roles.

And in my opinion it is true that older staff get comfortable, secure in their jobs, and deliver absolute cough pax-experiences.

There is a not so subtle difference in phrasing between Matts post and juddles which is where complaints about prejudice always arise.

In my view yes, certainly I have seen this attitude amongst older staff members, I've also seen examples of older staff members who just absolutely love their job and bring this to work every day. I've also seen plenty of examples of grumpy younger staff members.

I do agree with the fact that the Qantas system of seniority would seem to mitigate against consistently high performance. If serving in premium cabins is seen as a something that should be aspired too it should go to good performers, not those who have just been around the longest. Seniority is relevant in jobs where experience brings increased capability to do the job, in the case of airline cabin staff for many the job is essentially the same regardless of whether you have worked 3 or 30 years in it. And if good performance in a job is not a pre-requisite for keeping it, human nature does mean some will do the least possible just because that's all the need to. HR 101.

 

[Matt_01]

OT and a semi deliberate hijack as I was going to start a different thread but as this is related to customer service.

One thing that really annoys me when I travel is the cab rides to and from airports in AU, you hear the drivers phone ring then have to listen to one side of a conversation. Sorry you are working even if it is driving someone to/ from the airport. It seems to be prevalent in AU when compared to overseas.

Now that I got that off my chest we can go back to discussing old staff.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I do agree with the fact that the Qantas system of seniority would seem to mitigate against consistently high performance.

Doesn't just about every airline in the world operate under the same system? For both cabin and other crew. It doesn't hinder airlines such as SQ from offering the best service from their most senior crew.

Maybe we need to introduce a scoring system. Every member of cabin crew starts with 5 'stars' and works for a year. Every passenger complaint they lose a star. Every customer compliment they gain a star. Your priority to bid for routes (at the end of the first year and onwards) depends on how many stars you have, not your seniority.

 

[Pushka]

People often complain in Y. Short seat pitch, etc. But in "premium" airlines such as QF, Y pax are barely more than a break-even exercise - it is premium cabins that actually generate profit. But due to labour constraints it seems to me that QF is hamfisted and suffers terrible premium-cabin pax experiences. This is surely bad for the airline, long term.

Why is that the fault of the cabin crew? I thought it was all about y passengers invading the J toilets.

OT and a semi deliberate hijack as I was going to start a different thread but as this is related to customer service.

One thing that really annoys me when I travel is the cab rides to and from airports in AU, you hear the drivers phone ring then have to listen to one side of a conversation. Sorry you are working even if it is driving someone to/ from the airport. It seems to be prevalent in AU when compared to overseas.

Now that I got that off my chest we can go back to discussing old staff.

Oh we had exactly that today. Caught a cab to use the Qatar voucher from last night. The whole trip to the airport the driver was talking in Hindi? on the phone, driving erratically and full blown yawns. He was a great ad for Uber.

 

[love_the_life]

It's the price we pay to live in countries where employees have rights?

But I get where you're coming from

You'd rather the employees didn't have rights?

 

[TomVexille]

You'd rather the employees didn't have rights?

As an employee, no. But you look at the likes of the US carriers where it's nearly impossible to fire people and therefore some people take advantage of that. But there are plenty of senior cabin crew who don't and still take great pride in their job.

Doesn't just about every airline in the world operate under the same system? For both cabin and other crew. It doesn't hinder airlines such as SQ from offering the best service from their most senior crew.

Maybe we need to introduce a scoring system. Every member of cabin crew starts with 5 'stars' and works for a year. Every passenger complaint they lose a star. Every customer compliment they gain a star. Your priority to bid for routes (at the end of the first year and onwards) depends on how many stars you have, not your seniority.

I thought SQ's method was that you need multiple instances of positive written feedback to be able to move up to J and F?

 

[Boca68]

Well, as someone that regularly flies the same route @juddles is alluding to. SYD-SCL QF27/28, I can only give my experiences.

I do find that the staff 'tend' to be 40+ , but that never bothers me in any way. Often upon talking to them this seems to be the first long haul international they have done. Maybe that's juddles problem?

On that particular route, I have nothing but good service. Everyone has a bad day. If you compare to LATAM . who I also regularly fly, QF is winning hands down in comparison,

One bad egg, doesn't necessarily mean an awful omelette....

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I thought SQ's method was that you need multiple instances of positive written feedback to be able to move up to J and F?

I believe you have to do a certain number of years in economy before you can moe up - but that's no difference to most other airlines. And yes, you can't have any negative feedback. Negative feedback can extend the period before you are eligible to move up cabins.

But it really shouldn't be about premium cabins. ALL passengers in ALL cabins deserve good customer service. Taking away seniority to bid for prime routes would give an incentive to all crew, no matter which cabin, to perform well. Hence maybe something like a star rating system.

 

[whughes3]

As a fairly long-standing International QF J pax, I must say that I have never noticed any obvious correlation between FA age and job performance; I have experienced good, average and poor service from FA's of all ages. And I would add that I sometimes do appreciate being attended to by people who aren't young enough to be my grandkids...

 

[Matt_01]

There is a not so subtle difference in phrasing between Matts post and juddles which is where complaints about prejudice always arise.

In my view yes, certainly I have seen this attitude amongst older staff members, I've also seen examples of older staff members who just absolutely love their job and bring this to work every day. I've also seen plenty of examples of grumpy younger staff members.

It is the reason I chose to use the words "long time staff become can become". I am older, and consider the grey hair army to be an untapped potential who can bring a great deal of experience to organisations. Unfortunately many HR/ recruiters may not see the same and many older job seekers may discriminated against based on their age, but there are many way around this.

Also long term employees these days - this does not mean old. I work in a industry and at a level where most in similar roles change jobs every 2-3 years, it is just the game.

In a previous life I work in an organisation that had been privatised (Govt sell off) and I had a staff member in their early 30's and was what I would consider to to be, lets say below average employee, lazy, poor attitude, etc. When I discussed performance planning with HR I was somewhat surprised to discover that it was near on impossible to 'manage them out' due to the conditions of the privations sale. As I unstood the situation, the individual was in a position in which they could essentially stay with the organisation until they decided to leave and 'managing out' was near on impossible.

On the flip side I have worked in other organisations with staff who have been there for 30+ years, still very passionate about the organisation and a lot of pride in what they contributed. The problems I observed with these type of individuals is they could be resistant to change and this is enviable in most business.

I do not know the QF recruitment policy's, however I would suggest that there is a percentage of people both males and females (lets start at 40+ and not trying to stereotype) who have been in previous relationships, have older kids, that would give their eye teeth for an opportunity to do free (working) or discount (staff) travel and would most like be more excited and enthusiastic, providing better customer service than the 'long term staff'.

I think @juddles has a title thread that grabs attention and depending on how the agitators respond and the pop in comments from the popcorn brigade go, this thread may vanish as did one of his other recent posts. Can not remember what it was called but I did enjoy the short lived nature of the the thread.

My understanding, title and comments aside we are discussing customer service. This is what cabin crew are employed for, regardless of age that is their job and if they do not understand that "step-up or get stepping". HR 102.

Also if the above does not make sense I am in one of those places when I am to tired to go to sleep but not awake enough to stay off the laptop.

 

[TomVexille]

Well, as someone that regularly flies the same route @juddles is alluding to. SYD-SCL QF27/28, I can only give my experiences.

I do find that the staff 'tend' to be 40+ , but that never bothers me in any way. Often upon talking to them this seems to be the first long haul international they have done. Maybe that's juddles problem?

On that particular route, I have nothing but good service. Everyone has a bad day. If you compare to LATAM . who I also regularly fly, QF is winning hands down in comparison,

One bad egg, doesn't necessarily mean an awful omelette....

Perhaps SCL is a less desirable destination?

 

[trooper]

One thing that always strikes me in threads about FA ages (and POS weights) is the hyperbolic exaggeration.... "average age 60" Seriously?
Any evidence for that assertion? So..half in their fifties..and half in their 70's? Sure.

 

[turtlemichael]

One thing that always strikes me in threads about FA ages (and POS weights) is the hyperbolic exaggeration.... "average age 60" Seriously?
Any evidence for that assertion? So..half in their fifties..and half in their 70's? Sure.

For an average age of 60 half could be in their 50's and half in their 60's

 

[11sjw]

One thing that always strikes me in threads about FA ages (and POS weights) is the hyperbolic exaggeration.... "average age 60" Seriously?
Any evidence for that assertion? So..half in their fifties..and half in their 70's? Sure.

The range might not be that far. I'm guessing the OP was suggesting 55-65.

 

[dajop]

Interesting discussion. Must say I’ve been pleasantly surprised by some of the older (usually male) crew i’ve encountered on the A330s between SIN and MEL in the last couple of years (and that’s in economy). And some of the older crew on NZ are also outstanding. So difficult to generalise. Maybe the SCL rotation lends itself to grumpiness!

I will take you task on your comment on J vs Y class profitability. They need each other to be profitable. It’s all about the real estate. For arguments sake, a Y seat might take up 0.25% of the plane space so be reasonable expected to take up 0.25% of the cost of operating the aircraft J seat might take up 1% ... or whatever the multiple is. Airlines need good Y loads for J to be profitable ... otherwise we’d see more all J airlines and very few all Y ones.

 

[dxwell]

I'm going to give two responses: A. Setting expectations. B. The potential of our experienced workforce.