Earning status points on points upgrades | Australian Frequent Flyer
Australian Frequent Flyer

Welcome to Australia's leading independent Frequent Flyer and Travel Resource since 1998!
Our site contains tons of information that will improve your travel experience.

Joining AFF is fast, simple & absolutely free - register now and take immediate advantage of these great BENEFITS.

Once registered, this box will disappear. And you will see fewer advertisements :)

Login Now to remove this and all advertisements (GOLD and SILVER members)
Not a member? Register Now for free

Earning status points on points upgrades

Status
Not open for further replies.

itsme_wrk

Newbie
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
4
Hi All,

This is the first time i've posted here, I traveled Brisbane - Sydney - Brisbane today and as I only need 100 status points to move to the next level, I decided to use some of my FF points to upgrade to business on both sectors with the understanding that I would accrue the Business Class Status points for the flights.

I read the Terms and Conditions before deciding to upgrade because I was going to use my points for an overseas holiday in a few months and if I use the 16000 i will have about 150,000 left.

After my Brisbane Sydney sector, I checked my points and noticed 10 status points - i queried it and was told that I was only entitled to the points for the ticket I had paid for.

Now heres the problem which needs to be clarified.

Frequent flyer points do hold a value, they are accrued as a result of our loyalty to Qantas and their affiliates and they are used to purchase flights and items in their frequent flyer shop.

Now I agree, an upgrade given to you by the airline on checkin should not accrue points because you have done nothing in most cases to get it except fly alot with the airline.

If however you do use points and pay for an upgrade to your flight, you have sacrificed something you have earnt in exchange for a service thus you have paid.

Qantas Frequent Flyer Terms and Conditions exemptions exclude a wide list of conditions which state that free, reward and award tickets do not earn you points.

If Qantas argue that the upgraded ticket is an award or reward and is thus exempt then no points should apply whatsoever but points are always credited for the base ticket.

Yes i'm a tad upset about not gaining the extra status credits needed after spending the FF points but in this instance i believe there may be an opportunity for FF members to challenge Qantas based on their own T&C and receive the points they paid for.

Non-flaming constructive thoughts on the matter ???

...
 

Dave Noble

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2005
Messages
6,419
It does say in the Terms and Conditions

T&C said:
9.5.1 A Cabin Class Bonus may apply for travel in Business or First class, or in the case of British Airways in World Traveller Plus. Any applicable Cabin Class Bonus will be credited according to the fare paid, not the cabin flown. Cabin Class Bonuses will not be credited for unpaid travel in, or unpaid upgrades to a higher class. Members should check the Airline Earning Table for details.
and

T&C said:
19.1.2 Status Credits are earned for paid travel on certain regular scheduled flights of Qantas, oneworld Alliance Airlines, Air Pacific, Jetstar Airways and QantasLink, or other airlines as determined by Qantas. The number of Status Credits earned varies depending on the fare class shown on the ticket used for travel.
Dave
 

itsme_wrk

Newbie
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
4
Dave,

I agree with you 100%

Your first quote references unpaid travel and unpaid upgrades.

If I am issued a free flight or free upgrade that has not come about with the exchange of points, that is unpaid travel and/or an unpaid upgrade.

If I do pay for the travel/upgrade with points earnt whilst flying with the airline, I have in fact paid a "price" for the upgrade thus its not unpaid.

To your second quote, my argument here is if I arrive at the airport and because there are people hanging off the rafters in economy, they bounce me to business, thats an unpaid upgrade - because it does happen, that clearly defines unpaid upgrade - as the traveler, you have in no way paid for the privilage of the upgraded travel.

See what I mean?

They do provide unpaid upgrades and they are not upgrades to which points are garnished or traded therefore if you have been given an unpaid upgrade, you can take "unpaid travel" or "unpaid upgrade" to be one in which you havn't used your points and thus an upgrade in which you have used your points is a paid one.

...
 

simongr

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
14,426
If you accept the principle that you shouldnt get miles/SC for award flights (even though you have received a benefit for the exchange of an asset) I dont see how you could argue that you should receive SCs for a points upgrade - you have still received a benefit for an exchange of an asset. It is just the form of benefit that is different.

I would be annoyed as well if I had been advised I would receive the benefit and then made a decision based on it - but as we all know unless you check the T&C no matter what the customer service guy says - you ar efracked... unless you get lucky :)

Just so I understand as well - you have more flights planned to achieve the 100SCs required yes? the 10 from the BNE-SYD trip were just part of your plan?
 

NM

Enthusiast
Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2004
Messages
16,260
Qantas
LT Gold
Virgin
Red
Flights
My Map
As far as the terms and conditions are concerned, "paid" means money had been exchanged, not points. Qantas will tell you that FF points have no direct monetary value and hence an upgrade award is a free upgrade.

Note from Dave's second quote:
T&C said:
The number of Status Credits earned varies depending on the fare class shown on the ticket used for travel.
When you upgrade, whether with points or as an operational upgrade (what you have called a free upgrade) the fare class shown on the ticket does not change. Status Credits are paid according to the fare class shown on the ticket.

Now there are some cases where you may be incorrectly credited points and/or Status Credits for an upgrade. When that happens its a bonus. This can also happen when crediting to another airline's FF program other than the airline being flown, such as crediting an upgraded Qantas flight to AAdvantage where it will often credit as the upgraded class of travel. But again this is a bonus if you get it and not a published benefit.
 

itsme_wrk

Newbie
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
4
People, I agree that everyone interpolates and understands the current system however...

Qantas have paid people to come up with this long list of Terms and Conditions that starts with a list of Definitions - surely they don't make mistakes of this calibre and thus we are entitled.

Nowhere in that do they define that "paid" travel is only using cash vs points.

The means test
---------------

Correct me if word for word the following is incorrect:

"Unpaid Upgrade" = an upgrade provided to you without having to provide anything in return

example: You are at the airport, your flight is chockers, as a frequent flier, they upgrade you to business class to free up economy.

If that is correct and I can't think of any argument to negate it, then given the lack of any definition otherwise, a paid upgrade is anything other than that.

Remember here, these T&C writers are paid alot of money to write these terms and conditions, surely they could define that "paid" does not include any use of points or rewards.

...
 

kelpie

Intern
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
63
No dice.

Status credits are for people who fly a lot. Not people who churn millions of points through a work credit card and use the points on award flights.
 

JohnK

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
43,719
Please do not take this post as flame in any way. While I can sympathise with your position the dead give away in the T&C's is rule 19.1.2 which Dave kindly posted above. It would override what you perceive is paid travel with FF points.

QF T&C said:
The number of Status Credits earned varies depending on the fare class shown on the ticket used for travel.
I assume you paid for a super saver which is a discount economy fare class, ie 10 SC's BNE-SYD. The points used for upgrade to business class did not cause a new ticket to be issued. If you had paid for an upgrade with cash they would have issued you a new business class ticket. Therefore original super saver fare class shown on ticket would be discount economy.

itsme_wrk said:
Now heres the problem which needs to be clarified.

Frequent flyer points do hold a value, they are accrued as a result of our loyalty to Qantas and their affiliates and they are used to purchase flights and items in their frequent flyer shop.
How do you feel about FF points collected via credit cards, hotel stays etc. I guess you feel these should be status credit earning as well as you did mention Qantas and it's affiliates.

There are many people hanging on your words. They have millions of FF points but no status with Qantas as they only ever redeem FF points for award travel. They would love to pay for a super saver airfare and upgrade to business class or first class using FF points and then get SC's for business class or first class travel. I don't think this would be right.

To me there is no difference between redeeming FF points for an award seat or an redeeming FF points for upgrade to business class. They are both unpaid awards even if you feel they are not stated in this way.
 
Last edited:

oz_mark

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 30, 2002
Messages
18,549
Flights
My Map
JohnK said:
I assume you paid for a red e-deal. This would have been O or N class which are discount SC earning fare classes, ie 10 SC's BNE-SYD. The points used for upgrade to business class did not cause a new ticket to be issued. If you had paid for an upgrade with cash they would have issued you a new business class ticket. Therefore original fare class shown on ticket is N or O class, discount economy.
Being an upgrade, the original ticket would have to have been a super-saver.
 

JohnK

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
43,719
Ahhh, that explains it all. Still discount economy. Same same but not the same.
 

oz_mark

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 30, 2002
Messages
18,549
Flights
My Map
I think 15.1.6 (e) covers this

(e) Points and Status Credits will be earned only for the class of service that has been purchased, rather than the upgraded class of travel;
 

coco50

Active Member
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
932
Qantas
LT Silver
To quote another member, itsme_wrk, while I am sympathetic I reckon that you are PUAR:!:
 

itsme_wrk

Newbie
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
4
First thing, my credit card is a business card which does not accrue points and I have never bothered even noting my QFF number down on hotel stays so no, i don't expect the points.

There are a number of issues that everyone has side stepped, as with most forums, people veer off in all directions.

Thanks for your help anyway.

...
 

Kiwi Flyer

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Messages
5,546
Welcome to AFF itsme_wrk :) (like the handle!)

itsme_wrk said:
There are a number of issues that everyone has side stepped, as with most forums, people veer off in all directions.
What number of issues are being side stepped? It seems to me that you posted hoping to get support for your theory. QFF disagrees and it looks like most here think QFF has applied the published rules correctly (nice though it would be to get miles for upgrades).
 

Dave Noble

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2005
Messages
6,419
Kiwi Flyer said:
What number of issues are being side stepped? It seems to me that you posted hoping to get support for your theory. QFF disagrees and it looks like most here think QFF has applied the published rules correctly (nice though it would be to get miles for upgrades).

Indeed. I cannot see a sidestepped issue. The terms specificall specify that on upgrade travel the points/SCs are for the purchased class. There is no caveat that states that this relates to involuntary upgrades

Dave
 

JohnK

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
43,719
Robert Barlow said:
To quote another member, itsme_wrk, while I am sympathetic I reckon that you are PUAR:!:
I am glad google exists! :oops:
 

oz_mark

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 30, 2002
Messages
18,549
Flights
My Map
Section 15 of the Terms and Conditions specific relate to the the use of points or upgrade credits obtaining an upgraded flight. As such, the terms are quite clear in that when upgrading this way, it is the original purchased class that is relevant for SC earning.
 

simongr

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
14,426
Again I am not sure what the debate is. the rules are clear and the principles are the same - you are getting something that you have not paid for in either circumstances. FF points and the associated benefits are not a right they are a gift (for want of a better phrase). They are (in general) tradeable so as such have no value.

I think claiming that we have sidestepped this is a little bit condescending.
 

Dave Noble

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2005
Messages
6,419
Also, in section 2 of the T&Cs where the definitions are listed it does also say

T&Cs said:
'Flight Upgrade' means the redemption of Points or Upgrade Credits for travel in a cabin one class higher than the class for the fare paid, as further described in clauses 15 and 16;
Dave
 

serfty

Veteran Member
Moderator
Joined
Nov 16, 2004
Messages
43,105
Qantas
Platinum
Virgin
Platinum
Flights
My Map
itsme_wrk said:
... Nowhere in that do they define that "paid" travel is only using cash vs points. ...
Methinks the OP was trying to imply that by using points, the upgrade was indeed paid for.

In which case I can point out this part of the T&C's:
18.3 Points do not have a monetary value. They cannot be sold, transferred or exchanged other than in accordance with the Terms and Conditions. The prices for additional Points do not represent a monetary value for Points.
and of couse the OP agreed with these conditions by using the program:
6.1 By using the Card or Membership number, or claiming any Benefit, the Member agrees to be bound by the Terms and Conditions and provides the consents specified in clause 20.1 relating to personal information.
 
Get paid up to 25% in real cash from your everyday purchases from leading companies such as Virgin Australia, Booking.com, Woolworths, Coles, Apple, Microsoft and much more. Free to join and no catches!

Recommended by the Australian Frequent Flyer
Status
Not open for further replies.

Community Statistics

Threads
86,315
Messages
2,081,323
Members
53,721
Latest member
NJSteve84
Top