100,000 points taken in 11 weeks QFF

[Red Roo]

Can anyone shed any light on my situation?

I'd be happy to review this for you. Please send me a private message with your details as reference.

 

[Pushka]

Surely only points that have been sitting in an expired account for 18 months would disappear?

 

[JohnK]

Apparently it works the other way around.

It makes no sense to me.

If the points transferred to you were not expired points then you should expect to get use out of them not have them land into your account as expired points which are doomed. The transfer should not have been allowed.

I would get in touch with Red Roo on this site. And I would not give up either.

 

[pagingjoan]

I would get in touch with Red Roo on this site. And I would not give up either.

See RR offer in post 41 above.

 

[Hvr]

That's a bit harsh,

Life is harsh. One of the consequences of dealing with people is that you have to draw a line and rely on readily available T&Cs. Otherwise the organisation cannot function.

Not ignored! Not read. How many advertising emails do you receive everyday? Do you read every word of every email.

Would you feel the same if you were in my situation and a gift from your mother was taken away from you. How do you think your mother would feel about that?

When I get emails from organisations I deal with I do check them. I too would be interested to know what the subject title read.

 

[Thunder Down Under]

Sadly, near enough to my situation.

No forewarning email received before expiry of points.

Result. 164,000 points lost

One very loyal Qantas customer lost.

TDU

 

[JohnK]

See RR offer in post 41 above.

Apologies. I was composing post and it took a while before it was posted.

 

[Hvr]

Sadly, near enough to my situation.

No forewarning email received before expiry of points.

Result. 164,000 points lost

One very loyal Qantas customer lost.

TDU

In for a penny in for a pound, but how loyal have you been when you haven't flown Qantas for 18 months?

 

[serfty]

In for a penny in for a pound, but how loyal have you been when you haven't flown Qantas for 18 months?

That's rather harsh again.

Maybe they did fly qantas in that time.

 

[nlagalle]

Transfer is not activity, I am suggesting the origin account had no activity since June year before, that would mean points transferred have a Dec expiry on them regardless, unless the new account got some additional activity in the meantime. If thats not the case then you have a reason to call Qantas and ask for further details I would suggest.

Sorry but there is nothing in the T&C's that come close to what you are suggesting. Sound more like a wild stab at nothing.

By your reasoning if I transferred my daughters points to me after 17 months of no activity on her account, technically they'd expire in my account after a month. That's incorrect. The points gain YOUR expiry date, not from where they came from!

I think a more likely explanation is a computer error not dealing with an account that has had no activity.

 

[fersea]

I think hvr is being more than harsh he is being downright ridiculous. I think the 18 month rule is probably reasonable but in this case the OP didn't have any where near 18 months to use the points.

Surely common sense will prevail and QF will agree that you can't have an active account clock ticking when the balance is zero.

 

[JohnK]

In for a penny in for a pound, but how loyal have you been when you haven't flown Qantas for 18 months?

I believe that is irrelevant.

Hard earned FF points should never expire.

 

[Isochronous]

If transfers don't count as activity, then you shouldn't be allowed to transfer into an inactive account. Would a bank let you transfer money into a closed account? Sorry not attacking your point, just drawing an analogy.

Happened with me and Westpac once. I closed an account and drained funds from it, but the next month they credited interest to the account. I kept getting statements in the mail every month about the $1.35 or whatever it as in there, and had to go into a branch and waste 30 mins for them to fix it. Why they couldn't have proactively sent me a cheque, I have no idea.

 

[fersea]

Of course the OP has already had points expire once. The points from the Bali trip in 1998 (presumably not many). Common sense would suggest that if you get your points reset to 0 then the clock can't start ticking again until you get more points.

 

[hcsneb111]

I'd be happy to review this for you. Please send me a private message with your details as reference.

Not sure how to do that Red Roo. Can you PM me or someone else tell me how to do it.

 

[hcsneb111]

Not sure how to do that Red Roo. Can you PM me or someone else tell me how to do it.

Worked it out.

 

[woodborer]

Life is harsh. One of the consequences of dealing with people is that you have to draw a line and rely on readily available T&Cs. Otherwise the organisation cannot function.

There is the letter of the T&Cs, but on top of that, I would argue that there is the spirit and intent of the T&Cs. Now while I think that the T&Cs have been scrupulously enforced to the letter (with even the implied 60 days notice), I doubt that this situation was envisaged by those that wrote the rules. It is just one of those cases where an exception could possibly be made.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

notification of points expiry is contained in the terms and conditions (9.2.2):

(a) A warning is displayed to Members within the Points Balance section of Your Summary on qantas.com;
(b) Members who continue to receive paper activity statements, will receive an activity statement which includes a notification that Points are about to expire; and
(c) Members who have opted to receive communications online and via email, will receive a notification within their monthly electronic newsletter.

You could expect to receive both (a) and (c) in the case of the OP (who states they get emails rather than paper statements).

However, the terms and conditions simply don't cover the scenario where points are transferred to a non-active member. 'Active member' is a defined term, and 'non-active' is explained in the section dealing with points validity (cl 9.2.2).

But the clause on transfers only says that transfers need to be made to a 'member', without any warning as to the distinction between active and non-active.

I don't believe it is even possible to read the terms and conditions broadly in such a way as to incorporate 9.2.1 and 9.2.2 and 11 for pre-existing non-active members.

As for the notifications about points expiry - for pre-existing non-active members, you would not be expecting to see anything in relation to points expiry. Therefore no need to be looking at your account, or to be looking for such a message on any monthly statement.

The right outcome will be for a refund of the points back to the original member.




.

 

[Mwenenzi]

..I think the 18 month rule is probably reasonable but in this case the OP didn't have any where near 18 months to use the points.

Surely common sense will prevail and QF will agree that you can't have an active account clock ticking when the balance is zero.

Of course the OP has already had points expire once. The points from the Bali trip in 1998 (presumably not many). Common sense would suggest that if you get your points reset to 0 then the clock can't start ticking again until you get more points.

fersea If that was the case the points would never expire if they were moved form 1 old non active account with zero points to another old non active account with zero points.

QF ff rules state need an eligable activity in 18 months for the points to keep alive. Transferring is not an eligable activity
If points are transferred to non active account any time from month 1 to month 18 they will expire at month 18
If points are transferred to non active account during month 19 they will expire at the end of month 19 (or immediately?)
If points are transferred to non active account during month 20 they will expire at the end of month 20 (or immediately?)
If points are transferred to non active account during month 21 they will expire at the end of month 21 (or immediately?)

While this is unusal case hcsneb111 does seem to know about the expiry rules & of the Woolies EDR card
If hcsneb111 has opened a new account the points would have been alive for 18 months.
If hcsneb111 has opened and used a Woolies EDR card on his/her account the points would have been alive for 18 months from the EDR date.
If hcsneb111 had used the points for an award directly from his/her mothers account would be no isssues.

As above hcsneb111 could check if any other activity with a QF partner (airline including Jetstar, hotel, car rental, many others) has happened in the last ??months that can be retro claimed to activate the account to the date of that activity. http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/partners/index

Most frequent flyer program now have miles/points expiry. Many at 18 or 36 months after non activity and some 3 years after they are earned (use them or lose them)

Anyway good to see Red Roo is looking into this after my PM to Red Roo. Hopefully the points can be restored to the original account, but the rules specifially prohibit that.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

fersea If that was the case the points would never expire if they were moved form 1 old non active account with zero points to another old non active account with zero points.

QF ff rules state need an eligable activity in 18 months for the points to keep alive. Transferring is not an eligable activity
If points are transferred to non active account any time from month 1 to month 18 they will expire at month 18
If points are transferred to non active account during month 19 they will expire at the end of month 19 (or immediately?)
If points are transferred to non active account during month 20 they will expire at the end of month 20 (or immediately?)
If points are transferred to non active account during month 21 they will expire at the end of month 21 (or immediately?)

While this is unusal case hcsneb111 does seem to know about the expiry rules & of the Woolies EDR card
If hcsneb111 has opened a new account the points would have been alive for 18 months.
If hcsneb111 has opened and used a Woolies EDR card on his/her account the points would have been alive for 18 months from the EDR date.
If hcsneb111 had used the points for an award directly from his/her mothers account would be no isssues.

As above hcsneb111 could check if any other activity with a QF partner (airline including Jetstar, hotel, car rental, many others) has happened in the last ??months that can be retro claimed to activate the account to the date of that activity.

Most frequent flyer program now have miles/points expiry. Many at 18 or 36 months after non activity and some 3 years after they are earned (use them of lose them)

Any a good to see Red Roo is looking into this after my PM to Red Roo. Hopefully the points can be restored to the original account, but the rules specifially prohibit that.

hcsneb111 only knows about the rules around inactivity because of the predicament they now find themselves in. before that is is reasonable to assume they didn't know.

the rules may state they prohibit the return of points, but it is clear that that provision does not cover all scenarios, and is likely aimed at the transferor claiming they have made an error.

if there has been fraud on the account (as we have seen previously in another thread), or if there has been an error by qantas, or some other exception (as this current case may be), there is nothing which would prohibit an ex gratia crediting of points.

the terms and conditions as they stand simply don't cover the current scenario... unless there was some other step which we have not been informed about (for example, when mother was transferring the points there was a warning message that points would expire immediately for example).