Best Airline for Frequent Travel in Australia (split thread)

[harvyk]

John, that's ridiculous. You are telling me that $90 per flight is a reasonable AVERAGE for A HUNDRED domestic flights on the Qantas network? I just looked at a stack of flights SYD-MEL and back next week and didn't find ONE ninety dollar flight. To say nothing of all the other routes that where there are literally NEVER $90 flights. Are you seriously trying to tell me you can get a hundred business flights each year between major Australian cities and average $90 each?

Sorry, but see my comments above about some of the ridiculous self serving logic that people use to justify their QF affiliations.

There are very good reasons for people to go with QF. For every very good reason there's at least 5 people trying to pass off these ridiculous comparisons as actual reasons.

I rarely pay above $90 for flights for CBR-MEL, even now looking at QF811 next Wednesday (a flight I will be on) a red-e-deal is still only $101. Considering that they frequently have $79 fares (the cheapest I've used is a $69 sale fare) yes, on average, dom flights, over 100 flights, an average fare of $90 could be easily achieved

 

[JohnK]

John, that's ridiculous. You are telling me that $90 per flight is a reasonable AVERAGE for A HUNDRED domestic flights on the Qantas network? I just looked at a stack of flights SYD-MEL and back next week and didn't find ONE ninety dollar flight. To say nothing of all the other routes that where there are literally NEVER $90 flights. Are you seriously trying to tell me you can get a hundred business flights each year between major Australian cities and average $90 each?

Here is an update of my QF flights for this year.

I have booked and paid for 63 flights for a total cost of $5274 (including $7.70 credit card surcharge per booking) at an average of $83.71 per flight. The cheapest have been $65 each way and there are 2 returns for $221 each early in the year. From what I can see I have also booked 8 DJ flights but have not included these in the totals above.

Please note this does not include domestic sectors on international itineraries whether they are just a transit or long stopover.

 

[docjames]

Here is an update of my QF flights for this year.

I have booked and paid for 63 flights for a total cost of $5274 (including $7.70 credit card surcharge per booking) at an average of $83.71 per flight. The cheapest have been $65 each way and there are 2 returns for $221 each early in the year. From what I can see I have also booked 8 DJ flights but have not included these in the totals above.

Please note this does not include domestic sectors on international itineraries whether they are just a transit or long stopover.

JohnK the Virgin pricing would be interesting and useful to post if you can, as a comparison (and your best guesstimate of the QF cost for similar travel times, as presumably and from previous discussuion with you, you chose to fly DJ due to 1. to try it and 2. significant cost saving for the times you wanted).

 

[Smackbum]

Could the moderators split this thread again into a new topic under the heading :-

"Best Airline for Frequent travel in Austrlia if you can spend every day looking for bargains 6 months ahead and want to justify your airline choice (split thread)"

Or am I being a tad too facetious?

Actually we could kill this pointless digression off if the airlines published their average revenue per seat/km for economy travel. You would most likely find that from most expensive to least expensive it runs QF > DJ > JQ > Tigger, but the $ amounts would be interesting. My guess would be that QF is on average 25% more expensive than DJ, but of course all airlines run a yield algorithms and marketing drives that can turn the natural order on its head. And if you are really desparate and patient and flexible ... you will get what you want most of the time. But there's really no need to post data that is 99% irrelevant to 99% of flyers, because it just proves the adage of L, DL, and S!

 

[JohnK]

"Best Airline for Frequent travel in Austrlia if you can spend every day looking for bargains 6 months ahead and want to justify your airline choice (split thread)"

Or am I being a tad too facetious?

Why would you want to split the thread? Everything posted is relevant.

 

[dajop]

Why would you want to split the thread? Everything posted is relevant.

I agree with you on that.

My other comment is that I think whether it's DJ or QF, on balance frequent travel in Australia can be rewarding, and most people don't realise how good it is!! Try living somewhere where the choices are between LCCs and a number of full service airlines who don't feel the need to bother with loyalty programs for leisure travellers and self funded travellers.

In SIN, my choices for short haul are Tiger, Jetstar or Air Asia or the full service carriers of CX, SQ, TG and MH. Usually the cheapest fares on these full service airlines do not earn points at all, and come at a premium to the LCC's to boot. SO imagine having a choice of a $140 MEL-SYD return fare on JQ or TT, a $250 return fare on QF or DJ (that does not earn miles, points or anything like that, and sometimes only available if 2 of you travel together), or a $400 return fare on QF or DJ that does earn points! How would that alter things? And it's not that difft in NZ, although at least NZ now allow status earning on lower fares, just not points.

I think you're all spoilt for choice! (and I'm just ranting out of frustration!)

 

[medhead]

Could the moderators split this thread again into a new topic under the heading :-

"Best Airline for Frequent travel in Austrlia if you can spend every day looking for bargains 6 months ahead and want to justify your airline choice (split thread)"

Or am I being a tad too facetious?

Actually we could kill this pointless digression off if the airlines published their average revenue per seat/km for economy travel. You would most likely find that from most expensive to least expensive it runs QF > DJ > JQ > Tigger, but the $ amounts would be interesting. My guess would be that QF is on average 25% more expensive than DJ, but of course all airlines run a yield algorithms and marketing drives that can turn the natural order on its head. And if you are really desparate and patient and flexible ... you will get what you want most of the time. But there's really no need to post data that is 99% irrelevant to 99% of flyers, because it just proves the adage of L, DL, and S!

I think you are operating under the misapprehension that people who are getting better value on Qantas are sitting there searching for flights everyday. nothing is further from the truth. I work during the day I don't have time to be sitting around searching fares.

I also don't see how you can figure the numbers are irrelevant. We have all these supposedly price sensitive people saying how much cheap virgin is than qantas. So it is very relevant to provide examples that show value can be obtained from flying qantas. It is also the case that the value is obtained by being inflexible. I have to fly at certain dates and times, that makes it very easy to snap up the cheap fares when they show up.

 

[JohnK]

In SIN, my choices for short haul are Tiger, Jetstar or Air Asia or the full service carriers of CX, SQ, TG and MH.

Tell me about it.

I was going to start a new thread (and probably will anyway) to find out at which point (or dollar saving) would people go to a LCC. I have been looking for a BKK-SIN return for travel in early January returning late March.

The CX business class airfare is a little expensive at the moment and will mean I will waste another day from my holiday as I preferred a late night flight out of SIN so I started looking at Air Asia to try and save money but I will have golf clubs and luggage with me. Boy did I get a shock when I started to add up all the extras.

So at the moment the choices are down to THB7,360 for Air Asia, THB9,665 for Thai and THB11,900 for CX.

I don't believe the ~AUD80 saving justifies travelling on Air Asia over Thai Airways.

 

[dajop]

I don't believe the ~AUD80 saving justifies travelling on Air Asia over Thai Airways.

$80 is probably not too bad, but I bet that's in V or W class, and doesn't earn any form of star alliance mileage - unlike $330 return fares between similar length flights BNE and MEL on QF. And I see as usual SQ are not even in the race.

 

[JohnK]

$80 is probably not too bad, but I bet that's in V or W class, and doesn't earn any form of star alliance mileage

Believe it or not the TG airfare is in Q class and I think earns miles in Kris Flyer.

Does Air Asia have a convenience fee as well? For the $80 difference I would prefer to be on a full service carrier. Now if I did not have luggage or golf clubs it would be a different story.

 

[dajop]

Believe it or not the TG airfare is in Q class and I think earns miles in Kris Flyer.

Yes it does, that's good then, and yes Air Asia does have convenience fee.

 

[notzac]

Yes it does, that's good then, and yes Air Asia does have convenience fee.

What, exactly, is a convenience fee? And who is it convenient for?

 

[medhead]

What, exactly, is a convenience fee? And who is it convenient for?

The airline mostly, similar to a credit card fee, but I take as being for the convenience of paying for your ticket.

 

[notzac]

How incredibly ... convenient. Are there other credit card surcharges on top as well?

 

[medhead]

How incredibly ... convenient. Are there other credit card surcharges on top as well?

Not for tiger domestic, not sure about other airlines.

 

[dajop]

The airline mostly, similar to a credit card fee, but I take as being for the convenience of paying for your ticket.

To be fair to Jetstar Asia (who I think don't even call it a convenience fee, although it is for them), in Singapore you can trot off to your nearest SAM machine within 24 hrs (electronic payment machine found at most stations, post office and other places) and avoid the fee by using NETS (like EFTPOS) to pay straight from you bank account. Or you have the convenience of paying online straight away by CC. Now the ###'s over at Tiger do call it a convenience fee yet still charge $5/sector via the NETS method (vs $6 by CC).

 

[JohnK]

I know every situation is different and I really hate sounding like a cracked record but here are some more examples of QF vs DJ for a commuter.

Note these are not random dates these are actual weekends I want to be back in Sydney.

QF

• Fri 14 January BNE-SYD heaps of flights available at $75 leaving from late afternoon - early evening
• Sun 16 January SYD-BNE heaps of flights available at $75 leaving from late afternoon - early evening

• Fri 28 January BNE-SYD heaps of flights available at $75 leaving from late afternoon - early evening
• Sun 30 January SYD-BNE heaps of flights available at $75 leaving from late afternoon - early evening

DJ

• Fri 14 January BNE-SYD some early morning flights at $55 (which are useless to me) and best I can do is last flight of night at $95 and this is not including luggage as I will definitely need luggage as I will be away for 2 weeks
• Sun 16 January SYD-BNE some early morning flights at $55 (again useless to me) and heaps of flights available at $95 but again needing luggage leaving from late afternoon - early evening

• Fri 28 January BNE-SYD some early morning flights at $55 (which are useless to me) and best I can do is last flight of night at $95 and this is not including luggage as I will definitely need luggage as I will be away for 2 weeks
• Sun 30 January SYD-BNE some early morning flights at $55 (again useless to me) and heaps of flights available at $95 again needing luggage leaving from late afternoon - early evening

Now please note that for all DJ flights I will need to add $10 for luggage. Why would I be insane and travel DJ or should I leave Brisbane Friday morning and return Sunday morning?

The other thing t note which is extremely important is not only the luggage, food and drink on Qantas but also the FF points. I will earn a minimum of 1,000 QFF points for each flight where as with DJ on a $95 fare (no Velocity points if you pay extra for luggage) I will 475 Velocity points.

I don't know even why I bothered to waste my time looking at the DJ website when I knew the $55 airfare would come with heaps of restrictions? Can anyone work out the saving I am getting for flying Qantas?

 

[JeniSkunk]

I know every situation is different and I really hate sounding like a cracked record but here are some more examples of QF vs DJ for a commuter.

Note these are not random dates these are actual weekends I want to be back in Sydney.

QF

• Fri 14 January BNE-SYD heaps of flights available at $75 leaving from late afternoon - early evening
• Sun 16 January SYD-BNE heaps of flights available at $75 leaving from late afternoon - early evening

• Fri 28 January BNE-SYD heaps of flights available at $75 leaving from late afternoon - early evening
• Sun 30 January SYD-BNE heaps of flights available at $75 leaving from late afternoon - early evening

DJ

• Fri 14 January BNE-SYD some early morning flights at $55 (which are useless to me) and best I can do is last flight of night at $95 and this is not including luggage as I will definitely need luggage as I will be away for 2 weeks
• Sun 16 January SYD-BNE some early morning flights at $55 (again useless to me) and heaps of flights available at $95 but again needing luggage leaving from late afternoon - early evening

• Fri 28 January BNE-SYD some early morning flights at $55 (which are useless to me) and best I can do is last flight of night at $95 and this is not including luggage as I will definitely need luggage as I will be away for 2 weeks
• Sun 30 January SYD-BNE some early morning flights at $55 (again useless to me) and heaps of flights available at $95 again needing luggage leaving from late afternoon - early evening

Now please note that for all DJ flights I will need to add $10 for luggage. Why would I be insane and travel DJ or should I leave Brisbane Friday morning and return Sunday morning?

The other thing t note which is extremely important is not only the luggage, food and drink on Qantas but also the FF points. I will earn a minimum of 1,000 QFF points for each flight where as with DJ on a $95 fare (no Velocity points if you pay extra for luggage) I will 475 Velocity points.

I don't know even why I bothered to waste my time looking at the DJ website when I knew the $55 airfare would come with heaps of restrictions? Can anyone work out the saving I am getting for flying Qantas?

How absolutely effortlessly easy it is to selectively misquote information.

You claim you are searching for the cheapest fares, without actually saying what fare classes you are using for each flight, so an apples to apples comparison can be made based on the fare classes. The correct fare class comparisons for QF to DJ are:
QF: Red e-Deal
DJ: GO! Fare

QF: Super Saver
DJ: Blue Saver

You claim

I will definitely need luggage as I will be away for 2 weeks

, but in each pair of the dates you list, they are a mere 2 days apart.

Jan 14 BNE-SYD
DJ:
GO! Fare: none available for the times of day for travel.
Blue Saver $116. 16:00, 16:30, 17:00, 18:00, 19:00
Blue Saver $95. 20:00
QF:
Red e-Deal $75. 16:15, 16:45, 17:15, 17:45, 18:15, 18:45, 19:15.
Super Saver $204. 16:15, 16:45, 17:15, 17:45, 18:15, 18:45, 19:15.

Jan 16 SYD-BNE
DJ:
GO! Fare: none available for the times of day for travel.
BlueSaver $95. 16:00, 17:00, 18:00, 19:00, 19:30, 20:00
QF:
Red e-Deal $75. 16:05, 17:05, 17:35, 18:05, 18:35, 19:05, 20:05.
Super Saver $204. 16:05, 17:05, 17:35, 18:05, 18:35, 19:05, 20:05.

Jan 28 BNE-SYD
DJ:
GO! Fare: none available for the times of day for travel.
Blue Saver $116. 16:00, 16:30, 17:00, 18:00, 19:00
Blue Saver $95. 20:00
QF:
Red e-Deal $75. 16:15, 16:45, 17:15, 17:45, 18:15, 18:45, 19:15.
Super Saver $204. 16:15, 16:45, 17:15, 17:45, 18:15, 18:45, 19:15.

Jan 30 SYD-BNE
DJ:
GO! Fare: none available for the times of day for travel.
Blue Saver $95. 16:00, 17:00, 18:00, 19:00, 19:30, 20:00
QF:
Red e-Deal $75. 16:05, 17:05, 17:35, 18:05, 18:35, 19:05, 20:05.
Super Saver $204. 16:05, 17:05, 17:35, 18:05, 18:35, 19:05, 20:05.

Where you mention the frequent flyer points on QF and DJ, you fail to say how each airline calculates points. You also fail to list the SC earn for each flight, and the status level you are using for each flight.

QF calculates frequent flyer points at flat base rate of 1 point per mile travelled, then it adds percentages of the base frequent flyer points earned for the varying frequent flyer class levels. Nothing Bronze is 0%, Plebian Silver is 25%, Scum Gold is 50%, and Whinging Platinum is 100%.
DJ calculates frequent flyer points at 5 points per $AUD spent on fares for a Nothing Red, 6 points per $AUD spent on fares for a Plebian Silver, and 7 points per $AUD spent on fares for a Whinging Gold.

QF calculates SCs based on the distance travelled in miles and class of travel, irrespective of the frequent flyer class of the card holder.
DJ calculates SCs at 5 points per $AUD spent on fares for a Nothing Red, 6 points per $AUD spent on fares for a Plebian Silver, and 7 points per $AUD spent on fares for a Whinging Gold.

475 frequent flyer points for a $95 Blue Saver fare on DJ means the Velocity status you are working from is a Nothing Red.
For the $116 Blue Saver fares on DJ, the frequent flyer points earned for a Nothing Red is 580.
1000 frequent flyer points on QF means you are a QF Nothing Bronze.
The actual frequent flyer points earned for the flight is 936, but QF use a Minimum Points Guarantee of 1000 frequent flyer points per flight.

The SC earn on DJ for a Nothing Red using the $95 Blue Saver fare is 475 SCs, and for the $116 Blue Saver fares, the SCs earned is 580.
On QF, the SC earn for the one way flight for a Nothing Bronze using the Red e-Deal or a Super Saver is a measly 10 SCs.

The last point to note in the comparisons is where in the aircraft you plan on sitting.
For a DJ flight, excepting the PE rows, using OLCI you are not heavily restricted in your choice of seat. Economy fares can get any row from 4 to the rear of the aircraft.
On QF, however, where you can sit in the aircraft depends strictly on your fare price. Economy fares on QF are always down the back of the aircraft. The more expensive fares are further towards the front, with clear demarkation within the aircraft as to the different fare price areas.

Jenifur Charne

 

[dk4]

How absolutely effortlessly easy it is to selectively misquote information.

From my perspective JohnK is not misquoting anything. He is simply searching for the best flight out of BNE on a Friday (evening) and the best flight back from SYD on a Sunday (late afternoon). (Which IMO is a fairly standard sort of search.)

You claim you are searching for the cheapest fares, without actually saying what fare classes you are using for each flight, so an apples to apples comparison can be made based on the fare classes. The correct fare class comparisons for QF to DJ are:
QF: Red e-Deal
DJ: GO! Fare

QF: Super Saver
DJ: Blue Saver

Do you work for an airline? Because form a regular customers’ POV - there is absolutely no difference between a "GO! Fare" and a "Blue Saver" (save from, as pointed out, the increased points/status credits). So, quite rightly, IMO, JohnK is only looking at the lowest price available around the times that he wants to fly.

(Obviously he is factoring luggage + F&B into his equation based on his needs, and factoring out the need for "flexibility" as he is prepared to make a commitment to fly at a certain time.)

I would also point out that QF Super Saver is NOT a comparison to DJ Blue Saver IMO! As far as I am concerned, QF Super Saver is a Business Class fare - and the only time I purchase a domestic Super Saver is to travel in J, something that DJ's Blue Saver does NOT offer. (Certainly QFF points are involved in comfirming this upgrade, immediately after booking.)

QF calculates frequent flyer points at flat base rate of 1 point per mile travelled, then it adds percentages of the base frequent flyer points earned for the varying frequent flyer class levels. Nothing Bronze is 0%, Plebian Silver is 25%, Scum Gold is 50%, and Whinging Platinum is 100%.

This is where the QF 1000pt minimum guarantee comes in to play. If it wasn’t there, then even a WP flying SYD-BNE or SYD-MEL would not get 1000pts from those flights. Hence why it probably figures so prominently in QF’s marketing!

On QF, however, where you can sit in the aircraft depends strictly on your fare price. Economy fares on QF are always down the back of the aircraft. The more expensive fares are further towards the front, with clear demarkation within the aircraft as to the different fare price areas.

With QF domestic economy - where you sit, if you preselect when booking, is based solely on your FF status (& available seats). So as a WP, on the cheapest fare, JohnK would probably be able to select seats (on booking) from the 3rd row of economy (and back, excluding exits) on any QF flight BNE-SYD-BNE.

 

[harvyk]

Economy fares on QF are always down the back of the aircraft. The more expensive fares are further towards the front, with clear demarkation within the aircraft as to the different fare price areas.

No their not, I've been able to get the front rows (including the much wanted row 4 on a 737) on nothing more than a Red-E-Deal + NB. Even now it's unusual for me to have to sit further back than row 19, and oftan much further forward, and I usually travel on red-e-deals.

When I'm sitting on a plane the only thing I really care about in regards to class is if I'm in Eccon, Premium, Business or First. I don't really care if I am flying on a Y class or a E class ticket, the result is the same - 1x eccon seat. Chances are if your looking at GO! Fares, Red-E-Deals, Super Savers or Blue Savers, your not really concerned with flexibility, and chances are your more concerned with price.

The other thing which you have ignored is the true value of a point. Which would you prefer, 1 million points with the buying power of a single Y return SYD-MEL flight, or 100 points with the buying power of a round the world F ticket. I know which I'd prefer.