Sydney Airport, and the death of rail & road infrastructure

[Cyclogenesis]

I am one who would love to see a rail link to Tulla... and as stated previously a commuter rail link to the airport was a specific clause (ie no compo) in the citylink contract.

That said all sides of government seem bereft of political will power (let alone actual ability to run current public infrastructure!)

The Skybus runs great... when all is good.
All it takes is a crash or other event and things become problematic... there are either not enough or not enough utilisation of priority lanes on the citylink...

The thing that MAY see the link built (there are murmurs of it coming onto the political landscape with a local greens candidate pushing for it) is that a rail link out that direction fills a bit of a gap in the current network...

 

[dajop]

I am one who would love to see a rail link to Tulla...

Can you tell me how you would run the rail link to make it work in a decent manner? Where would you run it? What rolling stock? How would it fit in with current traffic in the rail network? Where would you locate the station at the airport. Sure there can be delays on the Tulla if there is an accident, but there can be delays on suburban rail networks as well...

 

[dajop]

Aren't there shuttle buses that take care of those?
How far is the HI to the terminal anyway? Ditto T4?

Wouldn't say it's necessary, but probably more needed than a rail link. A link running at 3-5 min frequencies would be convenient.

There are shuttle buses, but the LT carpark one has got bigger, runs at reduced frequencies (compared to 10 years ago), and is often crowded (if you miss its a wait for the next one). Also traffic congestion can be bad at times, I am sure a airtrain style link could run a lot faster, and would be automated so no need to pay drivers sitting in traffic waiting for traffic lights to change. HI is not far, nor T4, but for those with luggage, children or less than fit bodies, can be a bit of a hike. With new developments coming (one day) on the site next to HI, I can see an airtrain being a sensible option.

 

[UP4014]

Can you tell me how you would run the rail link to make it work in a decent manner? Where would you run it? What rolling stock? How would it fit in with current traffic in the rail network? Where would you locate the station at the airport. Sure there can be delays on the Tulla if there is an accident, but there can be delays on suburban rail networks as well...

You'd use the existing rail corridor from Sunshine, run under the Calder Freeway, when you get along side the Western Ring Road you duck under that to the left, along Airport Drive in a trench (allows the roads to stay at ground level without the expense of an underground railway).

The railway then runs along the south side of Melrose drive (maybe even a station at the back of the industrial area there) then it's a straight surface run along in the open to the airport where you go into an an underground deadend station right under the main part of the terminal.

Along that route you could even make it a standard gauge link and use the standard guage track all the way into Southern Cross, no congestion from the regular suburban trains that way. Roling stock would simply be off the shelf cars.

Matt

 

[JohnK]

"The majority of Brisbane shuts down after 9.00pm". Well, that's true, I'll give you that one.

Oops. Meant to say "shuts down well before 9:00pm".

EDIT: In any case, we're straying waaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic here....

Sorry. And now I am contradicting myself. Time to exit stage left....

 

[browski]

I am confident you are wrong. The concession deeds that Citylink have specify circumstances in which compensation would be payable if certain things happen, and also that certain activities would not trigger compensation. In particular, a passenger only, heavy rail link to the airport would not trigger comepensation. If it carried freight - different matter.

Well the good people at Transurban certainly feel they have veto rights over a passenger train link to the airport. If you could dig up a non-compensation clause that would be a huge relief; but it doesn't exist. You might remember the other concessions that were given to Transurban at the time to encourage them to build the thing. They downgraded many 4 lane roads to 2 lanes. They turned 2-way streets into 1-way streets. Gee, they even took a pre-existing road called the Tullamarine Freeway and gifted it to Transurban.

Signing over the veto rights on new rail infrastructure was no biggy.

 

[browski]

Why this persistence or even care factor about a rail link to Tullamarine airport?

You're right, too much public transport is just silliness. What on Earth were Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Hong Kong, London, Sydney,
Brisbane and Dubai thinking? Gee, if only they'd thought of buses - what an oversight...........

 

[dajop]

You're right, too much public transport is just silliness. What on Earth were Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Hong Kong, London, Sydney,
Brisbane and Dubai thinking? Gee, if only they'd thought of buses - what an oversight...........

Sure, but the Skybus is for now an adequate service. It whisks you into the city in 20-25 minutes, usually without having to sit for 5 minutes going nowhere between Nth Melb and Southern Cross. It is clean and has dedicated luggage areas.

The proposal that was taken reasonably seriously before it got canned was to run a line across to Broadmeadows and into the city along that line. Best express at the moment along the line is 23 mins to the city, add another 5 mins, and you're looking at half hour journey times, hardly an improvement. And probably at frequencies less than skybus, and for tourists also without the add on of a free shuttle to city hotels....

Now if the airport link was the only gap in the Melbourne train network, or if it was a project being solely undertaken by the airport owners - I'd agree that it should by high on the agenda. However faced with a limited amount of money, as it is there are many deficiencies in Melbourne's public transport network that should be fixed first, before worrying about airport rail. Also until things are sorted out with the capacity issues in the system (ie the projects underway are completed - such as the dedicatedd tracks for regional rail services, and construction of the tunnel from Footscray to the Domain through the city on the north south axis), I don't think the inner network has the capacity to cope with more high frequency train services.

 

[oz_mark]

Well the good people at Transurban certainly feel they have veto rights over a passenger train link to the airport. If you could dig up a non-compensation clause that would be a huge relief; but it doesn't exist. You might remember the other concessions that were given to Transurban at the time to encourage them to build the thing. They downgraded many 4 lane roads to 2 lanes. They turned 2-way streets into 1-way streets. Gee, they even took a pre-existing road called the Tullamarine Freeway and gifted it to Transurban.

Go here: City Link Legislation : VicRoads
See Exhibit J.

 

[browski]

Go here: City Link Legislation : VicRoads
See Exhibit J.

Mark, that looks pretty clear, and I am happy to be corrected. It's like enduring the shame of sleeping with your sister and then finding out she was adopted.

One thing I did not understand from the document. Do the concessions mean that a rail link would be totally free from Transurban Citylink compensation, or does it mean that Citylink just cannot veto?

 

[oz_mark]

One thing I did not understand from the document. Do the concessions mean that a rail link would be totally free from Transurban Citylink compensation, or does it mean that Citylink just cannot veto?

My understanding of exhibit J is that it was a list taken from some transport plan at the time, and is a list of projects that would not give rise to compensation etc. Basically it is along the lines of 'we told you about these, so don't expect any money if they happen'

 

[medhead]

I think it is a fair comparison. Brisbane is supposed to be a city with a population of ~1.8 million and growing while Sydney is a city of ~4.2 million people and steady. Sure Sydney is double the size of Brisbane but a city the size of Brisbane should be able to come up with some variety.

What is the problem? Is it all the years under Joh Bhelke-Petersen? I don't think I am wrong in my observation that the majority of people living in Brisbane go to work during the day and then return to their burrows as soon as the sun goes down but come out in droves on weekends.

I know I am repeating myself but in Sydney I would play competitive district darts on Monday nights, social darts on Wednesday nights, ten-pin bowling in a league on Friday nights, club golf on Saturday and social golf via an RSL social golf club on most Sundays.

The same type of organised (let's call them "community") events do not exist in the same scale Brisbane. I love my social events all through the week not just weekends. It keeps my mind occupied and away from scary, depressing thoughts.

So I will rephrase my original statement. The majority of Brisbane shuts down well before 9:00pm.


Agreed although I don't know too many people who want to spend their evenings with kids who are drunk or on a coughtail of drugs like crystal meth, speed, ecstacy, cocaine just to name a few.

Sorry but I'm going to drag this back O/T for one minute. Firstly to apologise for thinking you were 32. I have no idea where I got that from.

I also wanted to offer the suggestion of the Irish Club in Elizabeth street in the city and also I think the city RSL. I had forgotten the NSW club culture.

I would also mention that while my idea of entertainment, might vary slightly it doesn't include any of those drugs that you mention.

As a comment I come from Brisbane (QLD in fact Sunshine coast, BNE and CNS in equal parts) and my social life was exactly as you mention, varied and every night of the week. By comparison I've found Melb and Syd to be boring during my stints in those cities. My social activities were more social sport orientated, but all of those things you mention can be done in Brisbane, maybe not in the CBD. They even have golf, even Joh* couldn't get rid of that.

So I had touch footy, mixed netball, scratch soocer games every second friday, movies tuesday nights and of course, as you mention outdoors stuff on the weekends - go to the coast, a bike ride, touch footy practice, club rugby, more movies, picnic at kangaroo point, sunday session in a beer garden, AFL games (See mighty fitzroy play).

Also after the death of dad, mum has got into Bridge.

During the week this certainly didn't stop at 9 pm. I had netball games schedule for 9:30 and 10 pm even in the more popular comps. Yes, it is a different culture and that life is more about the outdoors. It is also about BBQs and visiting people at home. The other factor is that brisbane can be very clique-y. I love brisbane and it upsets me that you find in boring, because is not my recollection. I would dearly love to be able to show you the brisbane that I know, so I'm really trying hard to offer some useful suggestions.

Besides the Irish club and maybe city rsl, you could try the broncos club, they do a good show I believe. There are also lawn bowling clubs that work at night. Birdge maybe and there has to be darts going on.

but as others mention a lot of this will happen in the suburbs not the CBD, it is a spread out city. The 1.8 million you quote are definitely not in Brisbane city, that population is more likely to include the gold coast upto cabulture. There are heaps of things happening after 9 pm on a week day in that area that don't not involve young drunk things and drugs.

A couple more general comments - The valley under Joh* was run by his mates, not really a little asia. Sure china town is there, but the history of the valley is much more than chinatown or junkie's. Yes, gentrification sucks.
Shame about the testosterone, if that is happening there now, how many times I got refused entry for having a collar with the excuse that it is an alternative venue and with that collar your obviously going to cause fights like in the city. So the tossers who made the valley seem to be having the chickens come home....

* please don't make comments about Joh, you perhaps only have an outsiders view and your comments are just that bit off the mark that it shows.

 

[Smackbum]

* please don't make comments about Joh, you perhaps only have an outsiders view and your comments are just that bit off the mark that it shows.

Who said that?

 

[JohnK]

Sorry but I'm going to drag this back O/T for one minute. Firstly to apologise for thinking you were 32. I have no idea where I got that from.

Me joking around in another thread. If you halved 32, then added that to 32 and subtracted 2 you would get very close to my age.

I also wanted to offer the suggestion of the Irish Club in Elizabeth street in the city and also I think the city RSL. I had forgotten the NSW club culture.

Hey RSL CLub culture in NSW is good. Most RSL's provide great entertainment. Look up Canterbury-Hurlstone Park RSL in Sydney and you will find some great acts/shows come along. One of the premier venues in Australia.

Thanks for the suggestion of the Irish Club. I shall try it out.

A couple more general comments - The valley under Joh* was run by his mates, not really a little asia. Sure china town is there, but the history of the valley is much more than chinatown or junkie's. Yes, gentrification sucks.

Shame about the testosterone, if that is happening there now, how many times I got refused entry for having a collar with the excuse that it is an alternative venue and with that collar your obviously going to cause fights like in the city. So the tossers who made the valley seem to be having the chickens come home....

It has nothing to do with Little Asia or even organised crime. More to do with the scumbags that hang around the area and think thay are in charge. For me it is definitely one place to avoid at night. No great loss.

* please don't make comments about Joh, you perhaps only have an outsiders view and your comments are just that bit off the mark that it shows.

I am sorry but I really had to laugh out loud. But you are right I am an outsider and I will more than likely always be an outsider in Brisbane. I grew up in Sydney and I would/could never swap Sydney for Bangkok so Brisbane would not even rate a mention.

There is only one reason I am in Brisbane. I have a job and I have an expensive lifestyle with a lot of debt. I am not too far off the mark on my assessment of Brisbane's life and culture. And by the way I do not mean any offence to the people who call Brisbane their home....

 

[medhead]

Hey RSL CLub culture in NSW is good. Most RSL's provide great entertainment. Look up Canterbury-Hurlstone Park RSL in Sydney and you will find some great acts/shows come along. One of the premier venues in Australia.

Totally agree that club culture in NSW is great. And if you look at the Greenbank RSL it is making it's way north. But Greenbank is half way to hell from the CBD.

I am sorry but I really had to laugh out loud.

The Joh comment was supposed to be funny, glad you laughed. But I do realise that just because I lived under that scumbag, doesn't mean other people can't hate him as well.

I am not too far off the mark on my assessment of Brisbane's life and culture. And by the way I do not mean any offence to the people who call Brisbane their home....

Not offended at all. Just makes me sad that that is your assessment and that you can't/haven't experienced the brisbane that I know. I understand why you would think Brisbane boring, but I think you are wrong to make that assessment.

BTW my little asia comments were more in response to other posts, but I didn't want to go on to much.

 

[Alanslegal]

I just skimmed this thread - but how did it start from being about SYD then moving onto Brisbane generally?

 

[straitman]

Sure, but the Skybus is for now an adequate service. It whisks you into the city in 20-25 minutes, usually without having to sit for 5 minutes going nowhere between Nth Melb and Southern Cross. It is clean and has dedicated luggage areas.

Adequate is the appropriate word here :!: Why are people happy to settle for adequate :?:

The bus is frequently over crowded and thus uncomfortable. It also seems that they saved money when purchasing the buses by buying ones without suspension which makes it more uncomfortable :!:

Fix those issues and I would use it more and I would be happy to say that the service is more than adequate.

 

[straitman]

Sorry but I'm going to drag this back O/T

How dare you try and bring this back OT :!:

 

[straitman]

I just skimmed this thread - but how did it start from being about SYD then moving onto Brisbane generally?

Alan,

You missed MEL which also gets a good mention :!:

 

[thewinchester]

What, a thread coming back on topic - I must have stepped into a parallel universe

I think the whole discussion evolved into how this isn't just isolated to SYD, but at most major capital airports in general. I'll say nothing more on PER, as that place has already been flogged like a dead horse around here.

Note to self: Must not start any more threads that have the potential to generate serious conversation and reach 8+ pages.