Sydney Airport, and the death of rail & road infrastructure

[Warks]

I got caught on 2.3.10 with parking at Sydney T2. Entered parking station at 9.40am on 2nd and returned 10.10am on 3rd ...$104 thank you sir. The parking was the same price as the flight. I was told it's $54 for the first day, and the same price for any part of the next day, so I have learned my lesson and my fault for not reading the T&C's. Park and fly would have been a lot cheaper.

So it's gone up since I last used it about a month or so ago? It was $48 per day then. I'm sure it used to then roll over at an hourly rate up to about 6 hours then go to whole day rate which is a little fairer than what you describe.

I haven't used it in years except for twice I've been caught in the last 6 months where there's been an accident in the Harbour Tunnel which left me with very little time (I usually find myself in the QP with an hour to spare!) and another time where I had to do a detour for something on the way. The cost is prohibitive but it seems to be full most of the time - although the Siberia end is usually only partly full.

Park & Fly is a much better option ($29 for day 1, $20 per day then $12 per day after day 5 I think) - minibuses go all the time and it's not far away. Long term sucks the big one, I'd rather take the train that waste an extra half hour going there. The bus service may have improved but whenever I use it I always just miss the bus and wait 20 minutes or so which could have been spent having a Blue Tongue or two. The only problem with Park & Fly has been their ticket machines not being able to read the tickets in the overflow car park. That's a separate rant though.

 

[Warks]

The answer to the mess at central is to use Musuem station for all your airport trains. You basically need to work out the direction around the city circle and know that all airport trains start at museum, that is they enter the city circle as trains ending at museum and then at some put turn into a train going out to whereever and stopping at airport.

Problem is that trains from Museum don't go onto the North Shore, Northern or Macquarie lines so it's another change. No point going to Town Hall or Wynyard as they are much worse than Central for crowding.

I'm sure this govt knows what it's doing and will soon solve all the problems!

 

[Maca44]

I don't mean to be critical in any way just a general question. Are people that time poor to use the long term carpark. Sure you need to wait for a bus to pickup and drop-off but that does not take more than 30 minutes each way. And at $25 for the first day or $114 for 7 days it has to be much better value than the short term carpark. And yes even if work is paying for the bill.

The client is paying the bill, but as mentioned, next time I will use Park & Fly. I have used them before and found them quite good. I have never left a car overnight in the terminal carparks, and just found the fees charge as legal robbery.

 

[medhead]

So except for a junkie pocket they call "The Valley" now, the rest of Brisbane pretty much shuts down at 9pm.

Of course The Mill is no litmus test of activity in Brisbane. Who in their right mind would make such an inference.

The valley - junkie pocket

It's been a loooong time since you've been there I can see. Sorry to say but it's changed heaps, it has experienced the intercity urban redevelopment. It is now full of yuppies, dinks and such types.

It's hard not to make the inference as I only hear about drinks functions at The Mill (pretty fine IMO) and also an expression of boredom with Brissy.

There are of course many other places beside the valley that open past 9pm. In fact there was a great backpackers place opposite central station, for example.

Somedays it would be nice to be able to just get out of the apartment and have a nice quiet drink without hanging around noisy drunk kids making fools of themselves....

Gotta say at 32 I was into drunk bare breasted backpackers daning on tables. But you have put up a hard call on this. It's a uni town hard to avoid the drunken kids. Best I can suggest is the upmarket hotel bars - Sheraton (name might have changed) above cnetral, the mill of course, The Stamford (used to be hertiage) down the other end of edward st, There is a bar opposite there as well, then also Lennon's at the top of the mall.

 

[medhead]

Problem is that trains from Museum don't go onto the North Shore, Northern or Macquarie lines so it's another change. No point going to Town Hall or Wynyard as they are much worse than Central for crowding.

I'm sure this govt knows what it's doing and will soon solve all the problems!

My point about museum was for getting trains to the airport, it is much easier. So this is getting from town and going out. of course this doesn't work if you have to get into town first. With respect to getting there from Kings Cross, as someone who is working Darlinghurst I find it much easier to get a bus to central, museum or st james than to change at central (yes the logic transfer point). But from the airport to work I do change at cnetral and go to kings cross as the buses are not on time in the mornings.

 

[notzac]

The valley - junkie pocket

It's been a loooong time since you've been there I can see. Sorry to say but it's changed heaps, it has experienced the intercity urban redevelopment. It is now full of yuppies, dinks and such types.

..and frankly, The Valley is much much more boring for all the redevelopment (though some of the new bars are quite excellent).

Some of the stories I could tell from the "bad old days" of the Valley! But perhaps it's better that that's all gone now.

 

[docjames]

Try CRU Bar on Ann Street (about two doors down the hill from the mall on the same side - it's only got a tiny street front so dont walk stragiht past it!).

If you want a casual but nice pub that i'd say would be suitable for after-work drinks, also try QA hotel in James street. Food's decent too although the table service can be patchy if they're busy.

 

[JohnK]

The valley - junkie pocket

It's been a loooong time since you've been there I can see. Sorry to say but it's changed heaps, it has experienced the intercity urban redevelopment. It is now full of yuppies, dinks and such types.

That area gives me the creeps.

It's hard not to make the inference as I only hear about drinks functions at The Mill (pretty fine IMO) and also an expression of boredom with Brissy.

There is nothing wrong with the Mill for a drinks night.

Unfortunately in my opinion Brisbane is boring. In Sydney I could easily walk to a Leagues Club, an RSL, a few bowling clubs and some pubs. As I am not a pub person this gives me good choice. If one wanted to drive then there are countless RSL's, golf clubs, bowling cliubs, and pubs within a 15 minute drive. There are also plenty of things to do in these establishments (indoor bowls, line dancing, darts, snooker, line dancing, bingo etc) as well as having a drink and/or meal while watching sport on a big screen or playing pokies.

Brisbane cannot compete with Sydney when it comes to entertainment. In fact it does not even come close. Or is that just my misguided observation?

Gotta say at 32 I was into drunk bare breasted backpackers daning on tables.

I am not 32, actually not even close, and the majority of backpackers wouldn't take any notice of me the first time let alone getting a second look....

 

[anat0l]

Brisbane cannot compete with Sydney when it comes to entertainment. In fact it does not even come close. Or is that just my misguided observation?

Comparing SYD and BNE in that manner is not a fair one. So your statement is essentially a truism.

Is BNE dead after 9pm? Not quite. Of course you'll find more to do in SYD at that time, but can you imagine a city like SYD being fairly quiet after 9pm? That'd be embarrassing.

Of course, the definition of entertainment varies from person to person, as medhead has pointed out.

...and frankly, The Valley is much much more boring for all the redevelopment (though some of the new bars are quite excellent)

That must be due to all the extra police and crackdown etc. due to the still rising crime rate.

Gradual gentrification of the whole area is also tending towards a more classy face rather than new clubs etc., which were springing up very quickly in years gone by. Hence more cafes, "nice" restaurants, modern apartment blocks, cleaned up little Asia etc. etc.

 

[JohnK]

Comparing SYD and BNE in that manner is not a fair one. So your statement is essentially a truism.

Is BNE dead after 9pm? Not quite. Of course you'll find more to do in SYD at that time, but can you imagine a city like SYD being fairly quiet after 9pm? That'd be embarrassing.

I think it is a fair comparison. Brisbane is supposed to be a city with a population of ~1.8 million and growing while Sydney is a city of ~4.2 million people and steady. Sure Sydney is double the size of Brisbane but a city the size of Brisbane should be able to come up with some variety.

What is the problem? Is it all the years under Joh Bhelke-Petersen? I don't think I am wrong in my observation that the majority of people living in Brisbane go to work during the day and then return to their burrows as soon as the sun goes down but come out in droves on weekends.

I know I am repeating myself but in Sydney I would play competitive district darts on Monday nights, social darts on Wednesday nights, ten-pin bowling in a league on Friday nights, club golf on Saturday and social golf via an RSL social golf club on most Sundays.

The same type of organised (let's call them "community") events do not exist in the same scale Brisbane. I love my social events all through the week not just weekends. It keeps my mind occupied and away from scary, depressing thoughts.

So I will rephrase my original statement. The majority of Brisbane shuts down well before 9:00pm.

Of course, the definition of entertainment varies from person to person, as medhead has pointed out.

Agreed although I don't know too many people who want to spend their evenings with kids who are drunk or on a coughtail of drugs like crystal meth, speed, ecstacy, cocaine just to name a few.

 

[anat0l]

I think it is a fair comparison. Brisbane is supposed to be a city with a population of ~1.8 million and growing while Sydney is a city of ~4.2 million people and steady. Sure Sydney is double the size of Brisbane but a city the size of Brisbane should be able to come up with some variety.

What is the problem? Is it all the years under Joh Bhelke-Petersen? I don't think I am wrong in my observation that the majority of people living in Brisbane go to work during the day and then return to their burrows as soon as the sun goes down but come out in droves on weekends.

I know I am repeating myself but in Sydney I would play competitive district darts on Monday nights, social darts on Wednesday nights, ten-pin bowling in a league on Friday nights, club golf on Saturday and social golf via an RSL social golf club on most Sundays.

The same type of organised (let's call them "community") events do not exist in the same scale Brisbane. I love my social events all through the week not just weekends. It keeps my mind occupied and away from scary, depressing thoughts.

So I will rephrase my original statement. The majority of Brisbane shuts down after 9:00pm.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one, because I still firmly believe you're arguing a truism here.

Not only are you arguing a point where the reverse being true would be absolutely absurd, but now you insist that the scales need to be so. Truism.


FWIW in Brisbane there are a lot of opportunities to play club/competitive/social sport - e.g. netball, touch footy, rugby and the like. Most of these fixtures take place in the early evening not too long after knock-off time, so they are likely to end before 9pm.

I used to do fencing before, which used to be between about 6.30pm to around 8.30pm.

I'm sure other people have many "community activities" that you can join if you want. Simple searches I've done have revealed you can join clubs for line dancing, trivia and darts, just to name a few. You might not be able to just waltz into your local club and find an activity you can join straight up. Nor might there be an activity of your liking close to your home or workplace.

Also, I'm sure most of these activities - and the ones you've stated - might run past 9.00pm but I hardly think that they would start after 9.00pm!


"The majority of Brisbane shuts down after 9.00pm". Well, that's true, I'll give you that one.


EDIT: In any case, we're straying waaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic here....

 

[Mal]

Sorry to say but it's changed heaps, it has experienced the intercity urban redevelopment. It is now full of yuppies, dinks and such types.

Yeah the Valley has changed heaps as you commented. Is pretty rough at 2am in the morning on a Friday or Saturday as it's full of drunks, soft drug s etc users and waay too much testosterone. The long cab queues don't help either!

There are of course many other places beside the valley that open past 9pm. In fact there was a great backpackers place opposite central station, for example.

Aaah, Down Under Bar. Oh the memories (when they used to let me in!).

Best I can suggest is the upmarket hotel bars - Sheraton (name might have changed) above cnetral, the mill of course, The Stamford (used to be hertiage) down the other end of edward st, There is a bar opposite there as well, then also Lennon's at the top of the mall.

The ex-Sheraton bar (used to be called Someplace Else, not sure what it's called now that it's under the Sofitel brand) was an interesting place. Assume it's now full of young ones looking for their cougar.

Unfortunately in my opinion Brisbane is boring. In Sydney I could easily walk to a Leagues Club, an RSL, a few bowling clubs and some pubs. As I am not a pub person this gives me good choice. If one wanted to drive then there are countless RSL's, golf clubs, bowling cliubs, and pubs within a 15 minute drive. There are also plenty of things to do in these establishments (indoor bowls, line dancing, darts, snooker, line dancing, bingo etc) as well as having a drink and/or meal while watching sport on a big screen or playing pokies.

The other issue is comparing suburban Sydney with inner city Brisbane. Of course they will be different.

If you chose a sample suburb like Chermside, then within a few Km you have:
at least 2 RSL's
Cinemas
10 pin bowling alley.
a lawn bowls club (maybe 2)
a couple of football clubs
Sports fields
great shopping at your doorstep.
Quite a few pubs.
etc etc.

EDIT: In any case, we're straying waaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic here....

Anyway, we definitely are drifting way too OT, perhaps a mod should slide this sub conversation into the playground

 

[dajop]

Anyway, we definitely are drifting way too OT, perhaps a mod should slide this sub conversation into the playground

Hooray a sensible comment worth reading.... from a Melburnian's viewpoint, all this banter about Sydney and Brisbane has been just like reading comparisons between Diet Coke and Coke Zero:!:

 

[browski]

It is likely that Melbourne Airport will never have a rail link.
I'm reasonably confident that a previous VIC Government handed veto rights to Transurban Citylink with regards to any new road/rail development that may affect traffic volumes on their roads.

So in effect, you would need to lobby Transurban, not Vic Gov if you ever wanted to realize a train link to Tullamarine airport. Bizarre, but true.

 

[Mal]

It is likely that Melbourne Airport will never have a rail link.

At least the Skybus service is pretty good and most importantly - it's not a huge rip-off. It's probably priced about the same as a train would be. MEL could be stuck with a BNE-esque Rail to the Airport. Opens late, shuts early and costs a fortune for the distance.

 

[UP4014]

It is likely that Melbourne Airport will never have a rail link.
I'm reasonably confident that a previous VIC Government handed veto rights to Transurban Citylink with regards to any new road/rail development that may affect traffic volumes on their roads.

So in effect, you would need to lobby Transurban, not Vic Gov if you ever wanted to realize a train link to Tullamarine airport. Bizarre, but true.

It would be logical to extend the tram the last few km's and run a dedicated set of trams fitted out for the service.

But I think you are right in the Vic Govt has signed over airport public transport access to a private entity. Amazing.

 

[oz_mark]

It is likely that Melbourne Airport will never have a rail link.
I'm reasonably confident that a previous VIC Government handed veto rights to Transurban Citylink with regards to any new road/rail development that may affect traffic volumes on their roads.

So in effect, you would need to lobby Transurban, not Vic Gov if you ever wanted to realize a train link to Tullamarine airport. Bizarre, but true.

I am confident you are wrong. The concession deeds that Citylink have specify circumstances in which compensation would be payable if certain things happen, and also that certain activities would not trigger compensation. In particular, a passenger only, heavy rail link to the airport would not trigger comepensation. If it carried freight - different matter.

 

[Groundfeeder]

Aaah, Down Under Bar. Oh the memories (when they used to let me in!).

Pleased to advise I am a regular there, even if it's only daylight (working)hours.

 

[dajop]

It is likely that Melbourne Airport will never have a rail link.
I'm reasonably confident that a previous VIC Government handed veto rights to Transurban Citylink with regards to any new road/rail development that may affect traffic volumes on their roads.

So in effect, you would need to lobby Transurban, not Vic Gov if you ever wanted to realize a train link to Tullamarine airport. Bizarre, but true.

Why this persistence or even care factor about a rail link to Tullamarine airport? Was discussing (the lack of a ) MEL rail link with some friends over the weekend, and we all strongly agreed that it would be difficult to see how a rail link could actually provide a better service than the current skybus arrangement. Unless they spend a whole heap of money on a dedicated rail link, any rail journey to the city is going to take at least as long, if not longer than the existing skybus service.

There a number of potential rail projects in MEL that are more urgent and more pressing than an airport rail link. Even at the airport, a "airtrain" /monorail linking the T4, T2, the Holiday Inn/Development area and several stops in the LT Carpark would be a better project IMHO.

 

[anat0l]

Why this persistence or even care factor about a rail link to Tullamarine airport? Was discussing (the lack of a ) MEL rail link with some friends over the weekend, and we all strongly agreed that it would be difficult to see how a rail link could actually provide a better service than the current skybus arrangement. Unless they spend a whole heap of money on a dedicated rail link, any rail journey to the city is going to take at least as long, if not longer than the existing skybus service.

There a number of potential rail projects in MEL that are more urgent and more pressing than an airport rail link. Even at the airport, a "airtrain" /monorail linking the T4, T2, the Holiday Inn/Development area and several stops in the LT Carpark would be a better project IMHO.

The only case I could see with a rail link from MEL to Tulla is:

• No traffic at all (how busy or blocked up can the highway between MEL city and Tulla become?)
• Depending on the rolling stock and track, it could go much faster than the Skybus. Of course, Skybus takes about 20 minutes nominally between city and Tulla; not sure if people are prepared to pay a premium for a train even if the time was reduced by half (i.e. 10 minutes, which sounds a bit ridiculous in the guise of our governments' approaches to exploiting available and reliable technology)
• Without considering a full life cycle, there are sustainability benefits of having a train link

Apart from that, the rest of the case is pretty weak. There are also incumbent political issues to deal with (notwithstanding the threat to Skybus) and let's not forget if there is actually any potential for MEL to expand operations / accept more flights than it does right now (as it stands, SYD is the hot spot, which can be read in many different (positive and negative) ways!).

What is access to MEL Tulla like at the moment (at least for those that live in MEL)? Is it very bad? Too busy? Traffic? Skybus unreliable (doubt it)? Or the difficulty associated with getting to Spencer Street station to catch it?

There a number of potential rail projects in MEL that are more urgent and more pressing than an airport rail link. Even at the airport, a "airtrain" /monorail linking the T4, T2, the Holiday Inn/Development area and several stops in the LT Carpark would be a better project IMHO.

Aren't there shuttle buses that take care of those?

How far is the HI to the terminal anyway? Ditto T4?