Qantas to slash number of first and business seats

[levelnine]

It is reported in today's AFR that Qantas will slash the number of first class and business class seats across its entire long-haul fleet under a major review of aircraft seating following a slump in demand for premium travel.

Unfortunately, I cannot link to the article, but key points include:

• Increasing number of economy seats on international routes to match Singapore and Emirates
• Changes expected to be announced by Christmas
• Joyce says they have first class seats in markets where there is no need for first class
• Will also include a revamp of cabins, toilets and IFE
• Seat pitch in all classes will not change
• First class will always remain on routes to LHR and LAX but was not needed for South America and San Francisco

 

[UP4014]

Ahh, the Joyce effect. Reduce and lower the options, go vanilla.

 

[serfty]

AFR required registration.

Here's a freely accessible report:

Qantas hit by more delays, slashes first-class and business seats - Business news, business advice and information for Australian SMEs | SmartCompany

 

[dajop]

It's happening. Business class has become too high-frills for business class, at least from a seating perspective.

What used to be First (ie flat bed seats) is now called business, what used to be called Business (seats with extra recline, pitch and width) is now called Premium Economy. And well economy is still, and always has been Economy. But the mix on the plane is all wrong, you need more Y+ than J, just as in the old days you needed more J than F.

And First? THat's really business class for those who want to quaff good champers and not mix with the riff raff in business, particularly favourably looked on by those in the establishment (ie the LHR market) and entertainment (ie the LAX market). Simple really!

 

[haydensydney]

Could this be a mistake given that the premium market appears to bottomed out and is on the rise?

It would be a shame to remove those seats, only to have the market recover and for those of us that enjoy premium travel (and those who like to upgrade) could only find that it is tougher to secure seats at the pointy end....

...mind you, its better to have a profitable airline with less premium seats, than a airline that is in liquidation :mrgreen:

 

[levelnine]

It would be a shame to remove those seats, only to have the market recover and for those of us that enjoy premium travel (and those who like to upgrade) could only find that it is tougher to secure seats at the pointy end....

My concern is that this will make J upgrades and awards even harder to come by than they are now, which would be a disappointment and would arguably reduce the value of QFF points.

 

[david870mdg]

Jet* / Joyce Star effect.
Goodbye service, hello profit.
$$ :mrgreen:

 

[Danger]

Disappointing. So much for Joyce's promise of Qantas as a premium airline. And I too fear the reduction in availability of F and J awards and upgrades.

 

[MelUser]

2 points:

(1) If they are going to revamp the plane, please convert the remaining J seats into fully flat J seats (mark 2 Skybed/whatever is on the A380).

(2) Yes, it will be a disappointment if upgrade seats are reduced. AA in the US maintains a loyal customer base only because its good customers expect (and at airports demand and shout at staff to obtain) seats in the premium cabins.

On a personal level I would rethink my own loyalty to QF and oneworld if I did not get upgrades out of economy for international travel. Often business class can be bought from other airlines at a price close to QF's premium economy fares.

 

[Nigelinoz]

Qantas sheds light on reconfi guration plan

http://www.travelweekly.com.au/dirplus/images/travelweekly/TravelTodayPDF/17_11_2009.pdf

Qantas boss Alan Joyce has shed more light on its plans to
rip out first and business class seats on its A380s, telling the Australian
Financial Review it is looking for a similar model to Singapore Airlines and
Emirates.
Qantas currently has 72 business class seats on its A380,but Joyce said he
favoured the higher density mix found on Singapore Airlines and Emirates.
. “It is very clear the productivity is not right – we have too many premium class seats on many aircraft,” Joyce said.

 

[Dee Thom]

Re: Qantas sheds light on reconfi guration plan

A few years back Geoff Dixon blew the chance to introduce Y+ on 744's when the layflat seats in J were introduced, missing the setup of a perfect match in layout.
Now Alan Joyce, who being new to full service carriers, has the ability to get it right with a good Y+ mix, and product.
Only time will tell..........

Cheers Dee

 

[levelnine]

Re: Qantas sheds light on reconfi guration plan

I think the same article is being discussed here: Qantas to slash number of first and business seats - The Australian Frequent Flyer Online Community

 

[david870mdg]

2 points:



(2) Yes, it will be a disappointment if upgrade seats are reduced. AA in the US maintains a loyal customer base only because its good customers expect (and at airports demand and shout at staff to obtain) seats in the premium cabins.

.

Valid point. Yet the AA program has ALOT more competition from other US carriers, so they look after (and keep) their most loyal / platinum flyers.
QF has an absolute monopoly in Australia in terms of premium class domestic travel, and less so INTL. The lack of 'loyalty/reward' has been raised in previous threads.
+1 on the fare differences, sometimes even on the exact same aircraft if booked through a codeshare carrier.

 

[NM]

It's happening. Business class has become too high-frills for business class, at least from a seating perspective.

What used to be First (ie flat bed seats) is now called business, what used to be called Business (seats with extra recline, pitch and width) is now called Premium Economy. And well economy is still, and always has been Economy. But the mix on the plane is all wrong, you need more Y+ than J, just as in the old days you needed more J than F.

And First? THat's really business class for those who want to quaff good champers and not mix with the riff raff in business, particularly favourably looked on by those in the establishment (ie the LHR market) and entertainment (ie the LAX market). Simple really!

Could not agree more. Its a cycle.

 

[NYCguy]

The CEO of a UAE airline was quoted in Australian Aviation this month as saying something along the lines of 'the people who are saying first class is dead are the same ones who wouldn't touch the backpacker market a couple of years ago".

In other words, this announcement is short-sighted and reactionary. One must wonder if QF will ever have a CEO with the testicular fortitude to hold their hand. Are the shareholders braying for his blood? The dividend is alright, considering how airline stock are, as a general rule, pretty sh*thouse investments.

 

[dajop]

2(2) Yes, it will be a disappointment if upgrade seats are reduced. AA in the US maintains a loyal customer base only because its good customers expect (and at airports demand and shout at staff to obtain) seats in the premium cabins.

Conversely QF maintains a profitable customer base only because it doesn't create an expectation that its customers will be able to fly in premium cabins at economy prices. Instead it sells seats in the premium cabins, usually at reasonable profit margins, who as a result become its "good customers".

 

[maninblack]

Some airlines have opted for the 3 class service of a kind of J+,Y+ and Y. With the new Skybed Mk2 I have no need for an F seat and I think that most people would be the same, so if they scrubbed the F cabin on the 380 I wouldn't really care. When QF get their 787's (or will it be A350's) they will certainly have no F and I assume most current 744's will be refitted with 18 J's in the front, perhaps the upstairs will go all Y+

 

[Cyclogenesis]

I guess the big issue for dropping F would be for the high flyers (ministers, movie stars who are not yet big enough for a private jet, etc..) who want the privacy of the small F cabin with good "shielding" from Joe Public...

While a minister really can not abandon the red rat without an outcry, get rid of F and QF will loose a lot of street cred...

Hell, even Prince Harry flew on a commercial airliner (F on BA) on his last trip to Aus!

I heard that F actually did not suffer to much during the downturn as lots of people who would fly in a private jet were forced onto commercial liners...

Plus, I think it is a mark of progress that seats/service should get better (and better value!). Watch this space as the upturn gets into swing (we are already talking about the next skills shortage rather than unemployment... )!

Although I do agree with statement about the mix, cull some J, add more Y+... and I dont quite understand the yield management on the trans pacific route, surely most bums on seats in J are upgrades or not at the list price... $15,000 return MEL-ORD when you can get Y for $1,500 (or less!)

My employer has a fly J policy for flights 8+ hours (OH&S) but with the employee option to accept a Y (+QC for a year)... This option is pretty much compulsory on transpac or you will be told to conduct your business using skype!

 

[Danger]

I guess the big issue for dropping F would be for the high flyers (ministers, movie stars who are not yet big enough for a private jet, etc..) who want the privacy of the small F cabin with good "shielding" from Joe Public...

I've never heard of a minister flying F. In fact, on the public purse, I think there'd be a bit of an outcry. Even now, here in WA, there's been recent media coverage about the huge expenses incurred by parliamentarians who have flown J.

While a minister really can not abandon the red rat without an outcry, get rid of F and QF will loose a lot of street cred...

I do agree that Qantas would lose a lot of its shine (assuming there's a sizeable reduction in F seats across the fleet) but I would disagree that a minister would feel obliged to fly Qantas if the price was not comparable.

 

[Cyclogenesis]

I thought I read an article where Wayne Swan's staff got in trouble for riding up the pointy end with him on a trip...
I can not find anything on Federal ministers but here is a policy document from the department of premier and cabinet in QLD
Travel - Ministerial Handbook - Department of the Premier and Cabinet

Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries may travel First Class. Other officers are required to travel Business Class unless the officer is accompanying the Minister or Parliamentary Secretary who is travelling First Class, in which case the officer may also travel First Class.

Ahh found info on the event I was thinking of, here is an excerpt from an interview with the PM:

Interview | Prime Minister of Australia

MITCHELL: Okay well why are you spending – but that is only one example. There is $60,000 sending four staff, first class, to London with Wayne Swan for the G20. Now business class, fair enough, but first class?
PM: Well as I’m advised, the arrangements that are in place of the travelling entitlements for the current Treasurer’s office are identical with the previous Treasurer’s office