Qantas Block Partner Earn on Competitor Routes

[kangarooflyer88]

Here’s a question I have that I feel the QF terms don’t answer sufficiently. Suppose I am a QFF member and booked a ticket with QR for SYD to DOH (via ADL) with the domestic segment on QF metal. Would I earn QFF points and status credits on:

• The QF domestic flight between SYD and ADL?
• The QR international segment between ADL and DOH?

Here’s another example to consider: suppose I book QR from SYD to DOH via ADL and MEL with the ADL to MEL inter domestic segment operated by QR. how would that work for crediting to QFF? Would I not receive points on the QF domestic sector to ADL but I will on the QR inter domestic sector to MEL?

Reading it several times now it is unclear to me! If I wont receive status credits on some or all of the segments crediting to QF then why bother flying them down to ADL? May as well have VA for that segment instead and credit with them!

-RooFlyer88

 

[oz_mark]

Here’s a question I have that I feel the QF terms don’t answer sufficiently. Suppose I am a QFF member and booked a ticket with QR for SYD to DOH (via ADL) with the domestic segment on QF metal. Would I earn QFF points and status credits on:

• The QF domestic flight between SYD and ADL?
• The QR international segment between ADL and DOH?

Here’s another example to consider: suppose I book QR from SYD to DOH via ADL and MEL with the ADL to MEL inter domestic segment operated by QR. how would that work for crediting to QFF? Would I not receive points on the QF domestic sector to ADL but I will on the QR inter domestic sector to MEL?

Reading it several times now it is unclear to me! If I wont receive status credits on some or all of the segments crediting to QF then why bother flying them down to ADL? May as well have VA for that segment instead and credit with them!

-RooFlyer88

The clause doesn't affect crediting to QFF.

 

[justinbrett]

Here’s a question I have that I feel the QF terms don’t answer sufficiently. Suppose I am a QFF member and booked a ticket with QR for SYD to DOH (via ADL) with the domestic segment on QF metal. Would I earn QFF points and status credits on:

• The QF domestic flight between SYD and ADL?
• The QR international segment between ADL and DOH?

Reading it several times now it is unclear to me! If I wont receive status credits on some or all of the segments crediting to QF then why bother flying them down to ADL? May as well have VA for that segment instead and credit with them!

-RooFlyer88

The clause has nothing to do with crediting to QFF.

QF will always credit to QF regardless of which airline's ticket (if it's in the right class, ie not award) - noting you cannot get a QR code on a QF flight, they are booked as QF.
QR international still credits as per the airline earning table.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

The clause has nothing to do with crediting to QFF.

QF will always credit to QF regardless of which airline's ticket (if it's in the right class, ie not award) - noting you cannot get a QR code on a QF flight, they are booked as QF.
QR international still credits as per the airline earning table.

Fair enough. To give another example suppose you are an AAdvantage or BAEC member, could you still earn tier/loyalty points on the QF domestic flight?

 

[justinbrett]

Fair enough. To give another example suppose you are an AAdvantage or BAEC member, could you still earn tier/loyalty points on the QF domestic flight?

Yes, unless BA or AA do a deal with VA.

The issue isn't connecting to a QR flight, it's crediting to QR for routes that VA can also credit to QR.

 

[Seat0B]

And when QR bails on OW, then why not EK joining in OW....

Ooh that would be good for me.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

And when QR bails on OW, then why not EK joining in OW....

I don’t see BA (Emirates) joining OneWorld. I think they like the arrangement they have right now partnering with a multitude of airlines from United and Air Canada to Qantas. And so far as I can tell, joining an alliance does restrict the types of joint ventures and cartels you can form!

 

[Seat0B]

Again, it has nothing to do with Qantas saying "don't fly QR if you plan on crediting your flights to QF, and if you must fly QR at least credit it to Virgin where you'll earn something for your troubles" - its saying fly Qantas by all means but if you do, you will not earn that other program’s loyalty points if (... other conditions). Note the negative affirmative will not. Not 'may not' or 'may not be eligible for', Qantas is saying that (in the running example), QR will not award me Avios ... I mean, how arrogant can you get?

Which lends a bit of support to the suggestion by @RichardMEL above that maybe this is happening at QR’s behest. That is one way to guarantee that QR will not award Avios- if QR has made the decision. But then it is really weird that it is in QF’s FF T&C. If it is a decision by QR, then you’d think it would just be a notice by Qantas or an amendment to the points and SC earning tables.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

But then it is really weird that it is in QF’s FF T&C. If it is a decision by QR, then you’d think it would just be a notice by Qantas or an amendment to the points and SC earning tables.

This is also why I keep asking the question: are we sure QFF members aren't impacted by the change given it's been added to their T&Cs?

 

[jase05]

QR international still credits as per the airline earning table.

Which unfortunately for QF FF is a woefully pathetic earn

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Which unfortunately for QF FF is a woefully pathetic earn

Well at least you'll earn more status credits crediting it to QF than to VA!

 

[justinbrett]

This is also why I keep asking the question: are we sure QFF members aren't impacted by the change given it's been added to their T&Cs?

And you keep getting the same answer.

It can't possibly apply to QFF members as it relates to flying QF metal.

 

[wannabeinvestmentbanker]

use of the word status credit is interesting as that’s a wholly QF terminology unless it’s defined elsewhere?

So this also applies to those that switched to BAEC right, not just QR?

 

[justinbrett]

use of the word status credit is interesting as that’s a wholly QF terminology unless it’s defined elsewhere?

So this also applies to those that switched to BAEC right, not just QR?

No, it only applies to programs that award points and status credits for non-Qantas group domestic flights.

No oneworld airline, other than QR, does this.

Perhaps this is a warning shot if there was talk of another VA partner in oneworld (unlikely).

The term status credit is the QF one but the concept is alliance wide. Probably wanted to steer away from using QR terms so favoured their own. Status credit is a lot more generic than QPoint.

 

[RooFlyer]

So if woolworths said that you won't earn QFF points on liquor, are you going to get mad at woolworths for denying your right to earn QFF points?

Seems logical to me the entity paying for the points can deny your right to earn them for their service. You're free to earn them from another entity.

OK, last time I'm not mad at anyone - just incredulous that Qantas would purport to say that I will not earn on another airline's loyalty program. But as you asked - if Woolworths denied me QFF points on liquor, I wouldn't get mad - I simply wouldn't care as I'm not collecting them anymore. . I'd go to another liquor store where I'll earn Avios or KrisFlyer miles. Woolies - no sale.

You apparently don't understand or don't want to understand the difference to earning (which occurs entirely within the other program) and awarding (which normally occurs, but not essentially, with the involvement/payment from the other carrier).

What's not logical to me is that Qantas are attempting to enforce a mechanism where they unilaterally apply a prohibition or deny a right of mine contained within another carrier's T&Cs. Wouldn't it be truly logical if Qantas amended its T&Cs to say to the effect: "(under certain conditions) Qantas FF will not facilitate the awarding of other FF program's loyalty awards to QFF members ... by customary payment or other incentives to the other carrier ... Under these circumstances you may not be awarded loyalty points by the other carrier".

This way is entirely within QFF's control and fair warning to flyers that if they want to earn on their favoured FF program, they should fly Virgin, not Qantas. .

Separate question. Qantas Loyalty has been one of the airlines top profit earners. What level of legal within the company do we think may have signed off on this change to the program's T&Cs?

 

[RichardMEL]

QR wording:

Accrual on Qantas domestic flights are only eligible when they are in conjunction with an international flight marketed by either Qantas or Qatar Airways on the same ticket.

QF wording:

9.1.5 A member of a oneworld Member Airline or Airline Partner loyalty program will not earn that program’s loyalty points or status credits on any Qantas domestic flight where the oneworld Member Airline or Airline Partner permits their program points or status credits to be earned directly or indirectly on any non-Qantas Group flight on the same domestic route (where that domestic flight does not form part of a Qantas marketed international itinerary).

there's a slight difference on the international flight bit. QR will allow if on a QR itin or QF "marketed" - QF is more restrictive, Very odd.

It struck me that thse caveats are about who is getting the money for the paid fares - If you're a QR member flying MEL-SYD-YVR, QF gets the $$$ and normal FF service applies. Same with say LST-MEL-DOH-LHR issued by QR - they get the $$ (and pro rata to QF as appropriate, as with normal ticketing).

So, QF MEL-SYD alone will not allow for QR credit because VA also flies it.

I've searched through QR's website and the QR PC T&C which is quite unhelpful which vaguely mentions "eligible flights" broadly but with no actual definition that I could fine, and doesn't appear to have a specific section for airline partners other than oneworld, while the VA subpage implies all VA operated(marketed) flights will accrue QR credit.

QR's calculator doesn't even include VA as a earning partner so I couldn't even plug say MEL-SYD in to find anything that way.

Maybe I'm just used to QF's T&C but I find this a bit unsettling lol. Maybe QR is just actually simpler and fairer

anyway, I still wonder which entity is actually behind these changes.. I tried wayback machine to see how long the QF domestic flight caveat was on their site, but it kept barfing when I wanted to select Qantas on archived pages which was annoying.

My point being that did this condition change at QR with the addition of the VA partnership in November, or had it been there before (and if it changed when QR/VA became a thing, then QF updating their T&C in Jan suggests the QR chicken came before the QF egg).

 

[justinbrett]

You apparently don't understand or don't want to understand the difference to earning (which occurs entirely within the other program) and awarding (which normally occurs, but not essentially, with the involvement/payment from the other carrier).

I think you're being semantic, and whilst I agree the correct term for receiving points after a flight should be earn vs award (award implies it's a bonus, or compensation for doing something - like the 10K points bonus on flybuys etc) - it really makes no difference to the discussion. There's plenty of examples within oneworld of certain flights that won't grant QFF points.

I don't earn QFF points flying QF and get awarded QFF points flying AA. It's the same. Just that AA funds the ones I get flying AA metal. Importantly, AA can exclude certain flights from QF points if they wished.

Whatever you call it, QF is the one paying and they've said they're not paying.

Nobody denies it's weird this is in the QFF T&Cs. Unless the intended audience is QF FFs.

 

[RichardMEL]

Which lends a bit of support to the suggestion by @RichardMEL above that maybe this is happening at QR’s behest. That is one way to guarantee that QR will not award Avios- if QR has made the decision. But then it is really weird that it is in QF’s FF T&C. If it is a decision by QR, then you’d think it would just be a notice by Qantas or an amendment to the points and SC earning tables.

I wonder - if this is the case - if QFF have taken the opportunity to create their own more general clause post QR's choice to stave off future situations (I don't know, let's say BA and Rex or something) that are alike? ie to say to those other airlines that hey your members won't earn on our services if you want to allow them to earn on the flights of our domestic competition. (clearly a big airline like QR wouldn't/doesn't give a cough) but perhaps it's perhaps a bit of "insurance" or an attempt to protect their home patch in a way.

 

[RooFlyer]

It can't possibly apply to QFF members as it relates to flying QF metal.

Hmmm ... not sure if there's a typo there but of course it affects QFF members - its in the QFF T&C's. If you are a QFF member, crediting your QF flight (conditions) to QR PC, then this clause flatly denies you the right to earn on the other carrier (or purports to). If you do earn, in spite of Qantas' attempts to stop it, you are in direct breach of the QFF T&Cs.

Whatever you call it, QF is the one paying and they've said they're not paying.

I'll be semantic again. Where exactly have they said they're not paying (for QR Avios etc)? I'm being semantic because these are the formal T&Cs of the Qantas FF program - one of its biggest earners. The T&Cs should be able to be relied on and/or tested in court, not used as 'read between the lines ...'

Nobody denies it's weird this is in the QFF T&Cs. Unless the intended audience is QF FFs.

I would suggest that there is really few other audiences the QFF T&Cs are intended for than QFF members.

 

[justinbrett]

Hmmm ... not sure if there's a typo there but of course it affects QFF members - its in the QFF T&C's. If you are a QFF member, crediting your QF flight (conditions) to QR PC, then this clause flatly denies you the right to earn on the other carrier (or purports to). If you do earn, in spite of Qantas' attempts to stop it, you are in direct breach of the QFF T&Cs.

QF earning to QF was the context of that comment.

Are you suggesting QR PC members who aren't QFF can earn avios on these flights? Of course not.

I'll be semantic again. Where exactly have they said they're not paying (for QR Avios etc)? I'm being semantic because these are the formal T&Cs of the Qantas FF program - one of its biggest earners. The T&Cs should be able to be relied on and/or tested in court, not used as 'read between the lines ...'

By saying the other programs points & SCs won't be awarded/earnt/gifted/granted/transferred. I used plain language by saying "not paying".