New airline to fly Sydney/Melbourne in 3rd quarter rumour

[ozfflyer]

There was s story floating around about a year ago about a private jet on demand subscription service between Bankstown and Essendon.

Would you pay $2550 month for unlimited Sydney-Melbourne flights? - Plane Talking

Kind of like an plane version of Uber - theoretically.

It was getting some publicity then ran into some issues (regulatory, I think() which set them back a bit. It could have finally got some legs.

Regarding security, all their subscribers were going to have to have some sort of clearance, like an airside pass, to use the service, thus getting around the issue of no proper security at Bankstown - which I believe you need if you intend to put people in jets, even small ones

surf air in USA already do an unlimited flight pass per month. Only catch is you can only book a maximum of 4 flights in advance. Security is weight based, so if aircraft is 20t or over MTOW you need security. There was talk of this changing, but could then effect all Rex flights.

 

[ozfflyer]

What's the "comfortable" runway length over a minimum runway length? The F70 is about 1300m minimum, but if (a big if) it was a business class only concept, the MTOW would be lower, one would assume.

What's the minimum number of aircraft to make such a jaunt viable yet still provide back up when one goes tech, I wonder?

MTOW is not effected by number of seats. Certified by manufatcurer when built.

There was an all J class operation between SYD and MEL by a startup.

Didn’t last

No status credits
No high frequency schedule

Need both

status credits ? Don't think so. The people who might use this service probably aren't interested in status credits, but rather time saving & less stress.

A startup might be able to get away with a few flights in am peak hours & pm peak hours Mon-Fri & Sun pm flights.

Presume 3-4 aircraft would be needed. Base 1 at each end & depart/arrive at same time, with 3rd & 4th departing say 30 mins later.

 

[ozfflyer]

OT, but is the bypass happening? I thought that proposal was shelved. Whilst the range remains in play, it will always be a mental block to people from the east, using WTB (IMHO).

But to get back on track, WTB as an alternative to BNE is not fair as an analogy to BWU as an alternative to SYD as WTB is a lot further and has the Great Dividing Range to climb up en-route. A fairer comparison would be to talk about the SYD alternative being at Bathurst, but that's not going to happen, so it's all just meaningless really. A better genuine comparison would be to look at how OOL works with BNE or how AVV works with MEL or even NTL with SYD.

Bankstown & SYD are less than 20km apart by road & 20 mins drive on toll rd, on a good day, but think of Parramatta. Now that area has more population than ADL. Lots of corporate offices around Parramatta.

 

[Quickstatus]

status credits ? Don't think so. The people who might use this service probably aren't interested in status credits, but rather time saving & less stress.

A startup might be able to get away with a few flights in am peak hours & pm peak hours Mon-Fri & Sun pm flights.

Presume 3-4 aircraft would be needed. Base 1 at each end & depart/arrive at same time, with 3rd & 4th departing say 30 mins later.

That’s what the now defunct all J service tried to do, but didn’t survive. I don’t remember the name of the airline

 

[Must...Fly!]

That’s what the now defunct all J service tried to do, but didn’t survive. I don’t remember the name of the airline

Ozjet

 

[Quickstatus]

Ozjet

Thanks..

Here was the discussion.
Oz Jet to start all business class flights???

 

[ozfflyer]

That’s what the now defunct all J service tried to do, but didn’t survive. I don’t remember the name of the airline

That was Stoddard using old 737-200s. Ozjet I think you mean.

Stoddard owned heaps of 732s & with new interior 90% of passengers wouldn't have noticed the difference. They were noisy & thirsty I think, but no acquisition costs.

Ozjet flew from MEL to SYD, the very congested airports, as aircraft too big for Essendon & Bankstown, with constant delays, even worse when weather comes in, which presume what startup is trying to avoid.

 

[Quickstatus]

That was Stoddard using old 737-200s. Ozjet I think you mean.

Stoddard owned heaps of 732s & with new interior 90% of passengers wouldn't have noticed the difference. They were noisy & thirsty I think, but no acquisition costs.

Ozjet flew from MEL to SYD, the very congested airports, as aircraft too big for Essendon & Bankstown, with constant delays, even worse when weather comes in, which presume what startup is trying to avoid.

MEL and SYD don’t have constant delays. Flights mostly depart and arrive on time. Weather will affect other airports close by as well.

 

[ozfflyer]

MEL and SYD don’t have constant delays. Flights mostly depart and arrive on time. Weather will affect other airports close by as well.

of course they do. Almost every flight in peak hours, is delayed, which is why airlines timetable flights at 1 hour 30 & 1 hour 35, even though flying time in a commercial jet is almost exactly 60 mins, but they are take off queues, delays in air(slow down, do a circle), delays on getting from landing to gate & if you check luggage, be prepared for a very long wait if busy time of day.

Airlines pad their timetable, so in theory they can possibly take off late & land early.

If you carry your own luggage to aircraft(think you can do that, just like when you charter a small aircraft) then no delays on checked bags & can never get lost.

 

[Quickstatus]

of course they do. Almost every flight in peak hours, is delayed, which is why airlines timetable flights at 1 hour 30 & 1 hour 35, even though flying time in a commercial jet is almost exactly 60 mins, but they are take off queues, delays in air(slow down, do a circle), delays on getting from landing to gate & if you check luggage, be prepared for a very long wait if busy time of day.

Airlines pad their timetable, so in theory they can possibly take off late & land early.

If you carry your own luggage to aircraft(think you can do that, just like when you charter a small aircraft) then no delays on checked bags & can never get lost.

That’s not a delay if it arrives at the time on the schedule. I’d like to see evidence that during peak hour, almost every flight is delayed as that is not my experience.

@Melburnian1 do you have any data on delays during “rush hour” delay?

As for “padding” ... the aircraft has to leave the gate to get to runway. No aircraft can immediately take off as soon as aircraft leaves the gate. Gate to gate is different to runway to runway. There is no padding - because if there was, there would be some flights which arrive early when that doesn’t occur.

If you want faster travel then a private jet is the only way to go. (Compare apples with apples).

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Bankstown & SYD are less than 20km apart by road & 20 mins drive on toll rd, on a good day, but think of Parramatta. Now that area has more population than ADL. Lots of corporate offices around Parramatta.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I know Bankstown and SYD are close, which is why I said it was not valid to compare that to Wellcamp and BNE (150km and a 2 hour drive).

 

[opusman]

Maybe a seaplane from Rose Bay to Southbank?

 

[ozfflyer]

That’s not a delay if it arrives at the time on the schedule. I’d like to see evidence that during peak hour, almost every flight is delayed as that is not my experience.

@Melburnian1 do you have any data on delays during “rush hour” delay?

As for “padding” ... the aircraft has to leave the gate to get to runway. No aircraft can immediately take off as soon as aircraft leaves the gate. Gate to gate is different to runway to runway. There is no padding - because if there was, there would be some flights which arrive early when that doesn’t occur.

If you want faster travel then a private jet is the only way to go. (Compare apples with apples).

at SYD time from leave gate to actually take off can be a while, similarly at MEL & same from time of landing to get to gate. Could easily be 15 mins or more, at each end. At Bankstown & Essendon, this could be as little as 5 mins. So that's 20 mins to start with. Getting off a big jet, unless sitting up front can also take a while. The smaller the aircraft, the fastest this would be, obviously. Walking from gate to taxi rank at big airport can also take a while. Not so much at smaller airport. Similarly getting to the gate at big airports can take a while, check in queue, security queue & then the walk to the gate. You have to allow for long security queue at big airports, as if you don't, you might one day miss your flight.

So you might say, if you are business person, you simply get the next flight 15 or 30 mins later, but many business people now travelling on cheaper tickets & airlines will often charge you if you miss your booked flight.

All these bits of time start to add up.

There was a case discussed recently on another site of route SYD to Manila. 3 airlines, Qantas, Philippine Airlines & Cebu Pacific, all flew the same aircraft an A330 (might have been different versions of an A330 with different engines) Qantas timetabled their flight the slowest, Cebu the fastest, so in other words Qantas could take off late & still possibly land early, whereas Cebu, the cheap guys, who had a lot more seats on board, so presume take longer to get to cruise, could not. PR has since switched to an A321, LR I presume. So much for on time performance.

 

[Quickstatus]

Cebu, the cheap guys, who had a lot more seats on board, so presume take longer to get to cruise, could not. PR has since switched to an A321, LR I presume. So much for on time performance.

A few extra pax won’t add any time to total elapsed time.

On time is arrival at gate on time. How it can be otherwise?.

Yes a bus/car from SYD-CBR is quicker than any jet - door of house to door or destination. The door to door question always in the equation for any travel.

But there is no padding, or constant delays at rush hour. Just takes longer at rush hour but aircraft mostly arrives on time

 

[ozfflyer]

A few extra pax won’t add any time to total elapsed time.

On time is arrival at gate on time. How it can be otherwise?.

Yes a bus/car from SYD-CBR is quicker than any jet - door of house to door or destination. The door to door question always in the equation for any travel.

But there is no padding, or constant delays at rush hour. Just takes longer at rush hour but aircraft mostly arrives on time

I think Cebu put 436 passengers on their A330s. Not sure what Qantas has numbers wise, but surely 100 extra passengers means it takes longer to get to cruising altitude.

So you agree that using a smaller airport, is a much faster propostion ? That's what Neeleman (Moxy) is counting on in U.S.

further

Here's an example I saw for a U.S. airline using secondary ariports, modified for Bankstown to Essendon.


A business person living near Parramatta needs to go to Melbourne CBD for the day & be there by 9am.

By road Parramatta to SYD is at best, 51 mins on roads with tolls. Due to congestion, he/she needs to allow more like 90 mins.

Because of airport delays at both SYD & MEL ends, they book the 0600 flight, rather than a later flight, returning at 1800.

The only book the 0600 because on average, there will be delays somewhere en route.

So, they get up at 0300 to either drive or get taxi/Uber at 0400 to be at SYD by 0500-0530 for 0600 departure, to arrive MEL by 0735, but most days would get delayed, so their arrival time would most likely be closer to 0800. They then need to get out the airport(hopefully without having to wait for any checked luggage) & get a taxi/Uber to join the traffic into the CBD. They should get there before 0900.

But if they flew out of Bankstown, instead of 51 mins minimum to get to SYD, they are looking at 26 mins with no tolls.

Because of massive car parking charges at SYD many would incur the cost of a taxi/Uber, probably another AUD$50 to $70 each way, whereas at Bankstown, they could park right at the terminal, around 100m from parked aircraft, at no or negligible cost whatsoever. If they had any luggage, they would simply carry it to aircraft.

Other benefit of self driving, is you don't have to rely on Uber/taxi turning up on time, so you might order it to arrive 10 to 15 mins before actually needed.

Block times for a Saab/Dash 8/Dornier 328/Atr 42 turboprop might be slightly longer Bankstown to Essendon(but not a Dorneir 328 jet), than a jet SYD/MEL, but due to congestion at both SYD & MEL the difference would be negligible (airlines timetable their SYD/MEL at 1.35).

So instead of getting up at 0300 to be in Melbourne CBD by 0900, they could probably get up at 0430 to depart home by 0530 to be right at Bankstown terminal by 0555(25 mins up their sleeve to allow for traffic delays), to depart by 0630 to arrive at MEB by 0805. Exiting the aircraft at MEB would be much faster than at MEL & then could probably be in Melbourne CBD by 0835, as MEB is closer to Melbourne CBD than MEL, they would also save another 10 mins or so at least.

So less stress, possibly lower cost, 90 mins more sleep & that’s only in one direction.

Are any of the assumptions above incorrect in your opinion ?

 

[dajop]

If debating on time arrivals etc a peak hour it's not hard to find the information.

For example, QF 453 (5pm from SYD-MEL) and QF 455 (5:30pm) are pretty close to arriving "on time" (i.e. by airline definition ... within 15 mins), but almost always a little late (by strict definition). In the last month 455 seems worse, with average/median arrival 17 mins after schedule, and number of times on time (by airline definition) 12/26 and on time (by schedule) 7/26 ...

 

[ozfflyer]

If debating on time arrivals etc a peak hour it's not hard to find the information.

For example, QF 453 (5pm from SYD-MEL) and QF 455 (5:30pm) are pretty close to arriving "on time" (i.e. by airline definition ... within 15 mins), but almost always a little late (by strict definition). In the last month 455 seems worse, with average/median arrival 17 mins after schedule, and number of times on time (by airline definition) 12/26 and on time (by schedule) 7/26 ...

so QF 453 & 455 are either a B737 or an A330 depending on day of week ...... so 17 mins on top of hour 35 mins ? (hour 52 minutes) & if an A330 & seated in back 1/2 of aircraft & peak hour, it might take a while to get airbridge out to aircraft & then 300 people have to get off aircraft, which can take a loooong time.

 

[Melburnian1]

That’s not a delay if it arrives at the time on the schedule. I’d like to see evidence that during peak hour, almost every flight is delayed as that is not my experience.

@Melburnian1 do you have any data on delays during “rush hour” delay?

As for “padding” ... the aircraft has to leave the gate to get to runway. No aircraft can immediately take off as soon as aircraft leaves the gate. Gate to gate is different to runway to runway. There is no padding - because if there was, there would be some flights which arrive early when that doesn’t occur....

Quickstatus, the information published by BITRE does not differentiate between peak period and non peak period.

I'd suggest defining peak period for domestic air arrivals (not departures) in SYD and MEL as roughly 0715 to 1015 weekdays only, and roughly 1630 to 1930 of an afternoon/evening, Sundays to Fridays inclusive. Domestically, Saturday doesn't normally have a peak period (exceptions are perhaps when key AFL matches are on such as mid Saturday morning on AFl Grand Final Day, or key racing such as Stakes Day). I don't include NRL because crowds are way smaller.

Re timetables, jb747 disputed what I said a few years ago, but I can see where the two of you above are coming from.

There's padding in the schedules, because the typical flight time in the air is around 60 minutes, and yet the southbounds are timetabled for 95 minutes gate-to-gate SYD to MEL by all but TT, which allows 100 minutes. The northbounds are a typical 85 except if I recall TT that timetables them for 90.

So if we allow 12 minutes for pushback to takeoff, and five minutes at the other end for landing to gate time, southbound or northbound we have a flight that ought take roughly 77 minutes start to stop. Using some runways naturally adds a few minutes: for instance in MEL if one's aircraft takes off to the south, my timings indicate it takes five to seven minutes more. Even with that, it only comes to 82 to 84 minutes.

This padding allows the airlines to claim to government that their timekeeping is excellent when it's actually poor. BITRE monthly figures in the last few months have had some terrible results for major routes like SYD - MEL.

Gradually, domestic airlines have increased the public running times on a lot of routes, even ones like MEL - CBR. jb747 claimed that the previous timetables in the AN and TAA days were unrealistic but my memory of around 25 - 30 years ago is that they were often adhered to. Sure, many more aircraft (international and domestic) are competing for finite numbers of runways today and other factors like the '20 aircraft movement maximum for Sydney in every 15 minute block' do not help, but that doesn't remove how the timetables have become slower. All this has a cost to businessmen and women.

The key is that if we had the viable alternative of high speed rail as do so many other nations (including for distances similar to SYD - CBR, SYD - MEL or SYD - BNE/OOL), the airlines know that HSR would kill them because HSR is just so much more reliable and comfortable, and delivers passengers CBD to CBD (ideally with another station option in each of SYD and MEL outer suburbs for maximum convenience for those who live in Eltham or Parramatta).

 

[SeatBackForward]

I think Cebu put 436 passengers on their A330s. Not sure what Qantas has numbers wise, but surely 100 extra passengers means it takes longer to get to cruising altitude.

So you agree that using a smaller airport, is a much faster propostion ? That's what Neeleman (Moxy) is counting on in U.S.

further

Here's an example I saw for a U.S. airline using secondary ariports, modified for Bankstown to Essendon.


A business person living near Parramatta needs to go to Melbourne CBD for the day & be there by 9am.

By road Parramatta to SYD is at best, 51 mins on roads with tolls. Due to congestion, he/she needs to allow more like 90 mins.

Because of airport delays at both SYD & MEL ends, they book the 0600 flight, rather than a later flight, returning at 1800.

The only book the 0600 because on average, there will be delays somewhere en route.

So, they get up at 0300 to either drive or get taxi/Uber at 0400 to be at SYD by 0500-0530 for 0600 departure, to arrive MEL by 0735, but most days would get delayed, so their arrival time would most likely be closer to 0800. They then need to get out the airport(hopefully without having to wait for any checked luggage) & get a taxi/Uber to join the traffic into the CBD. They should get there before 0900.

But if they flew out of Bankstown, instead of 51 mins minimum to get to SYD, they are looking at 26 mins with no tolls.

Because of massive car parking charges at SYD many would incur the cost of a taxi/Uber, probably another AUD$50 to $70 each way, whereas at Bankstown, they could park right at the terminal, around 100m from parked aircraft, at no or negligible cost whatsoever. If they had any luggage, they would simply carry it to aircraft.

Other benefit of self driving, is you don't have to rely on Uber/taxi turning up on time, so you might order it to arrive 10 to 15 mins before actually needed.

Block times for a Saab/Dash 8/Dornier 328/Atr 42 turboprop might be slightly longer Bankstown to Essendon(but not a Dorneir 328 jet), than a jet SYD/MEL, but due to congestion at both SYD & MEL the difference would be negligible (airlines timetable their SYD/MEL at 1.35).

So instead of getting up at 0300 to be in Melbourne CBD by 0900, they could probably get up at 0430 to depart home by 0530 to be right at Bankstown terminal by 0555(25 mins up their sleeve to allow for traffic delays), to depart by 0630 to arrive at MEB by 0805. Exiting the aircraft at MEB would be much faster than at MEL & then could probably be in Melbourne CBD by 0835, as MEB is closer to Melbourne CBD than MEL, they would also save another 10 mins or so at least.

So less stress, possibly lower cost, 90 mins more sleep & that’s only in one direction.

Are any of the assumptions above incorrect in your opinion ?

However, there's a pice to be paid for flying with company XYZ out of Bankstown, rather than a recognised commerical aircraft carrier out of SYD. This would no doubt be a factor in the consideration of how to get to MEL

 

[ozfflyer]

However, there's a pice to be paid for flying with company XYZ out of Bankstown, rather than a recognised commerical aircraft carrier out of SYD. This would no doubt be a factor in the consideration of how to get to MEL

what's the price ?

Are you talking higher fares ? Would they necessarily have to be higher ?