Woolworths Qantas Credit Card Canceled letter.

[cove]

The Citi Business card is now capped at 250k per card,so you could go a his and hers and get 500,000 points in total for $149 each card.
Citi Select requires a tax assessment of $120,000 per applicant although Imere12 got that waived by being a long term customer....and a good one.

 

[MAX_1]

The below email was sent last Friday.
"Today you served notice of cancelling my Credit card within 21 days. I have paid $89 for the Annual Fee in July 2011. Will you be refunding me 5/12 of this Fee?"


Their repsonse today


"Thank you for taking the time to contact Woolworths Credit Cards.

In response to your email below, please be advised that the annual charge on a Woolworths Everyday Rewards Qantas credit card is $89.00 p.a. This can also be located on our website if you click on the ‘Credit Card’ tab and then on ‘Benefits’.

Also, as per our ’Conditions of Use’ any fees charged to your account are non-refundable:

20.3 All fees are non-refundable. However, a government or third party fee or charge will only be payable to the extent of the actual amount finally determined as being payable to the relevant government or third party.

If you would like any further information, please do not hesitate to contact us on 1300 10 1234 (Option 2- Credit Card, then Option 1 – Woolworths Qantas credit card) 8am to 11pm (AEST) Monday to Friday or via our website www.everydayrewards.com.au. "

 

[Moopere]

Ha! Thats rich, and probably illegal. If they caused the cancellation then I'd say they are on extremely shaky ground to refuse a full or partial refund. Looks like a form letter response thats come back without any thought to me.

 

[Deleted User]

The below email was sent last Friday.
"Today you served notice of cancelling my Credit card within 21 days. I have paid $89 for the Annual Fee in July 2011. Will you be refunding me 5/12 of this Fee?"


Their repsonse today


"Thank you for taking the time to contact Woolworths Credit Cards.

In response to your email below, please be advised that the annual charge on a Woolworths Everyday Rewards Qantas credit card is $89.00 p.a. This can also be located on our website if you click on the ‘Credit Card’ tab and then on ‘Benefits’.

Also, as per our ’Conditions of Use’ any fees charged to your account are non-refundable:

20.3 All fees are non-refundable. However, a government or third party fee or charge will only be payable to the extent of the actual amount finallydetermined as being payable to the relevant government or third party.

If you would like any further information, please do not hesitate to contact us on 1300 10 1234 (Option 2- Credit Card, then Option 1 – Woolworths Qantas credit card) 8am to 11pm (AEST) Monday to Friday or via our website www.everydayrewards.com.au. "

This mob is dodgy for sure...

Edit: and thank god I had my annual fee recently waived...!

 

[AdMEL]

Yes. I would have liked a warning and the card would have been keep for personal use only. Not sure what impact this has on my credit rating.

As has been said before, its only a game.

An earlier suggestion was to get a Citi Business Gold card. I do suspect the cap is only $80K - about 1-2 months spend so does not solve my problem.

What I am trying to figure out is what the earn rate for each Citi card -Select , Signature and Platinum expressed in QFF points.

It should have very little, if any, impact on your credit rating, given your credit file only shows credit applications and defaults (this should not be considered a default, unless you are late paying the closing amount after they have asked you to, before they close the account). The only issue is that you now have an extra application on your credit file, which shouldn't be a great deal.

The below email was sent last Friday.
"Today you served notice of cancelling my Credit card within 21 days. I have paid $89 for the Annual Fee in July 2011. Will you be refunding me 5/12 of this Fee?"


Their repsonse today


"Thank you for taking the time to contact Woolworths Credit Cards.

In response to your email below, please be advised that the annual charge on a Woolworths Everyday Rewards Qantas credit card is $89.00 p.a. This can also be located on our website if you click on the ‘Credit Card’ tab and then on ‘Benefits’.

Also, as per our ’Conditions of Use’ any fees charged to your account are non-refundable:

20.3 All fees are non-refundable. However, a government or third party fee or charge will only be payable to the extent of the actual amount finallydetermined as being payable to the relevant government or third party.

If you would like any further information, please do not hesitate to contact us on 1300 10 1234 (Option 2- Credit Card, then Option 1 – Woolworths Qantas credit card) 8am to 11pm (AEST) Monday to Friday or via our website www.everydayrewards.com.au. "

Again, without meaning to be rude, this is hardly surprising, given it appears the account is being closed due to a breach of the terms and conditions!

Ha! Thats rich, and probably illegal. If they caused the cancellation then I'd say they are on extremely shaky ground to refuse a full or partial refund. Looks like a form letter response thats come back without any thought to me.

Given the cancellation appears to have been due to a deliberate breach of the terms and conditions (whether the terms and conditions are fair and reasonable is another issue), it's not rich and I doubt illegal either.

This mob is dodgy for sure...

Edit: and thank god I had my annual fee recently waived...!

Notwithstanding it appears that they are for a number of other reasonable issues mentioned on this forum, it appears many are missing what I consider to be a pertinent point here - if you enter into a contract knowing that you are going to, then deliberately breaching the terms of that contract, you have absolutely no recourse and only yourself to blame. MAX_1 is very lucky they did not rescind every single point he earnt!

I am not claiming that most of us, myself included, don't and shouldn't enter into contracts where we intend to deliberately breach the terms. However, whenever I enter into a contract knowing I am going to deliberately breach the terms (e.g. car rental), I make sure I have a pretty good understanding of the potential consequences if I am caught, and if I am caught, I wouldn't be complaining!

 

[Deleted User]

this mob now get a fair share of my business expenses since I found out their interpretation of how interest should be calculated :evil:

I mean seriously... :evil:, I guess it was in the T&C's somewhere, and I know only a fool like me could miss it, but how the heck is this reasonable...?

Balance Due $**,***
Payment made (before due date) $**** (My mistake as I used the avail credit figure, not due balance)
Interest charged: Last Statement period $***
Interest Charged: This Statement Period $**

So it cost me $235 interest to "borrow" $571


houston we have a problem :shock::shock::shock:

Yes I know I should have paid the full amount on time, but there is a real sting in the tail with this card...!

 

[AdMEL]

this mob now get a fair share of my business expenses since I found out their interpretation of how interest should be calculated :evil:

I mean seriously... :evil:, I guess it was in the T&C's somewhere, and I know only a fool like me could miss it, but how the heck is this reasonable...?



So it cost me $235 interest to "borrow" $571


houston we have a problem :shock::shock::shock:

Yes I know I should have paid the full amount on time, but there is a real sting in the tail with this card...!

Whilst I don't think this calculation method is reasonable (far from it), it is not peculiar to this card (pretty much all cards are the same) and it is in the terms and conditions of all (albeit sometimes not easy to decipher). Where the difference is, is that some card issuers have a grace period of a couple of days and will refund interest in cases like this, for good customers. HSBC does not appear to do either, from comments on this forum.

 

[Moopere]

Again, without meaning to be rude, this is hardly surprising, given it appears the account is being closed due to a breach of the terms and conditions!

Given the cancellation appears to have been due to a deliberate breach of the terms and conditions (whether the terms and conditions are fair and reasonable is another issue), it's not rich and I doubt illegal either.

They have not stated its being closed due to this. They are not stating anything. I also don't understand how the refund due to removal of services is related to any potential breach of the T & C in any event ... is this a fine for being naughty?

They could, for example, cancel your or my accounts tomorrow, with no reason and no refund and we'd be in the same position.

Essentially, people can write anything they like in a T & C document. It gives you a heads-up on where they are coming from but isn't automatically legal. Companies make this mistake all the time, thinking their word is law, but its really not the case. Likewise, many consumer rights cannot be waived, even by consumers themselves in full knowledge of what they are doing ... its simply illegal to do so.

if you enter into a contract knowing that you are going to, then deliberately breaching the terms of that contract, you have absolutely no recourse and only yourself to blame. MAX_1 is very lucky they did not rescind every single point he earnt!

Proof is so very important though. It really is.

 

[Flashback]

Yes I know I should have paid the full amount on time, but there is a real sting in the tail with this card...!

Pretty common rate for most c/c's

 

[AdMEL]

They have not stated its being closed due to this. They are not stating anything. I also don't understand how the refund due to removal of services is related to any potential breach of the T & C in any event ... is this a fine for being naughty?

They could, for example, cancel your or my accounts tomorrow, with no reason and no refund and we'd be in the same position.

Essentially, people can write anything they like in a T & C document. It gives you a heads-up on where they are coming from but isn't automatically legal. Companies make this mistake all the time, thinking their word is law, but its really not the case. Likewise, many consumer rights cannot be waived, even by consumers themselves in full knowledge of what they are doing ... its simply illegal to do so.




Proof is so very important though. It really is.

In effect, it appears it's withdrawal of service and a fine for being naughty. It's pathetic that they haven't disclosed the reasons, but all banks are the same in that regard. To further elaborate on this, all loan contracts with all banks include a clause saying they can withdraw the loans at any time, at the bank's discretion, without reason - if you have a home loan (or credit card, business loan, or any other loan), have a close look at the loan documents! In practice, banks do not do this except in exceptional circumstances, as they are in the business of making money from loans. But it can happen, as MAX_1 has found out.

You are correct in that anything can be written in the t&c's, but that doesn't make them legal and t&c's cannot take away statutory rights, however I doubt that would the case in the situation we are discussing, where the cardholder has admitted the card has almost, if not, entirely been used in breach of the t&c's.

I agree that proof is very important, which is what I rely on when I rent a car and breach the conditions! In respect of the the situation we are discussing, I don't think it would be hard for HSBC to prove the card was being used for business use, in breach of the t&c's.

EDIT: IME, the point here is still that the t&c's (prohibiting business use, which, whilst I don't fully understand, I don't think is unreasonable per se) were deliberately breached by the OP's own admission. Aside from the fact that HSBC didn't disclose this as the reason, is reasonable grounds to withdraw the service.

 

[Moopere]

I don't think it would be hard for HSBC to prove the card was being used for business use, in breach of the t&c's.

Personally, I think this would be extremely difficult and is probably why HSBC is not giving their reasoning. To say that their perception of business use has occurred and this is why they are closing the account is to invite a direct challenge which I suspect they would find very difficult to win.

Its certainly not clear to me, as was discussed a dozen or so posts above, where this "business use" line is drawn, and such a definition doesn't leap out of the T&C or website at you.

In any event, I think they'd be mighty wise to refund the full annual fee for their having chosen to break the annual contract. Do this, and the problem (potential problem) largely goes away. To not do this leaves them in contract breach with no proof that this was triggered by the other party also being in contract breach. In any event, even if one or both parties are "at fault" the contract has now been nulled by the service provider, its incumbent upon them to hand back payment received for services they have decided not to fulfil.

 

[Deleted User]

Personally, I think this would be extremely difficult and is probably why HSBC is not giving their reasoning. To say that their perception of business use has occurred and this is why they are closing the account is to invite a direct challenge which I suspect they would find very difficult to win.

Its certainly not clear to me, as was discussed a dozen or so posts above, where this "business use" line is drawn, and such a definition doesn't leap out of the T&C or website at you.

In any event, I think they'd be mighty wise to refund the full annual fee for their having chosen to break the annual contract. Do this, and the problem (potential problem) largely goes away. To not do this leaves them in contract breach with no proof that this was triggered by the other party also being in contract breach. In any event, even if one or both parties are "at fault" the contract has now been nulled by the service provider, its incumbent upon them to hand back payment received for services they have decided not to fulfil.

+1



I need 10 characters apparently

 

[AdMEL]

Personally, I think this would be extremely difficult and is probably why HSBC is not giving their reasoning. To say that their perception of business use has occurred and this is why they are closing the account is to invite a direct challenge which I suspect they would find very difficult to win.

Its certainly not clear to me, as was discussed a dozen or so posts above, where this "business use" line is drawn, and such a definition doesn't leap out of the T&C or website at you.

In any event, I think they'd be mighty wise to refund the full annual fee for their having chosen to break the annual contract. Do this, and the problem (potential problem) largely goes away. To not do this leaves them in contract breach with no proof that this was triggered by the other party also being in contract breach. In any event, even if one or both parties are "at fault" the contract has now been nulled by the service provider, its incumbent upon them to hand back payment received for services they have decided not to fulfil.

I don't think it would be hard to prove business use at all. Paying BAS would be a dead giveaway (I realise there are some circumstances where this may not be for business purposes, but generally speaking it would be). Another would be paying large amounts, in excess of personal consumption, to suppliers. What makes you say that if HSBC suspects business use, they couldn't challenge the suspected transactions and transfer the onus of proof to cardholder to prove that they aren't for business purposes?

I am not familiar with HSBC t&c's, but I am familiar with Westpac Altitude Platinum t&c's (for a couple of reasons, which I have eluded to, but don't wish to clearly state on a public forum such as this), which clearly state the card is for personal purposes only and can be withdrawn at any time, as per these clauses from their t&c's:

4.4 Purpose of use
(a) Your Card must be used wholly or predominantly
for personal, domestic or household expenditure.
We reserve the right to determine, in any instance, 18 19
whether use or proposed use of your Card has been
or will be in accordance with this requirement.

13.1 Suspension, cancellation and termination
(a) (i) We may suspend or cancel your Card at any
time without prior notice.

(e) Without limiting or waiving our rights under clause
9.6 or 9.7 of this document, if the Card Account
has been terminated, you must immediately pay us
the full balance of the account, including (where
applicable) any amount reasonably expended by us
in collecting payments.

As I mentioned earlier, I suspect all lenders have similar t&c's, including HSBC. I don't think there is anything in them that is particularly unreasonable.

With regard to business use, one thing that is an issue for banks, is National Consumer Credit Protection which applies to all credit cards that are not used for business purposes.

I am not saying that the banks aren't hiding behind this to avoid huge liabilities for points though.

 

[AdMEL]

I've just had a look at the Woolworths Credit Card t&c's, which as I mentioned, appear reasonably similar to Westpac's.

A few pertinent clauses:

25. What happens if you breach this
credit card contract.
25.1 If you breach this credit card contract, we may do
any or all of the following (subject to condition 25.2):
(a) close or suspend your account;
(b) cancel or suspend your membership of the rewards
program and the rights and benefits attributable to
such;
(c) cancel or suspend a card;
(d) require the return of a card;
(e) use any money you have in any other account you
have with us towards repaying any amount you
owe us under this credit card contract (this is known
as “combining accounts”). (We may combine
accounts without giving you any notice.) If we do
this the balance in your other account will reduce by
the amount used for this purpose;
(f) require you to pay us on demand the total
amount owing;
(g) exercise any other rights that the law gives us; and
(h) require you to pay us on demand all enforcement
expenses we reasonably incur in the exercise of our
rights against you, including legal fees.


26. Cancellation and suspension
of your account and the return
of the card.
26.1 We may, at any time without prior notice, cancel
or suspend a card, ask for the return of a card, retain a 43
card presented to us or another person, close or
suspend your account, or otherwise cancel access to
your account.


Schedule 2
Rewards Terms
and Conditions.
1. Definitions.

business expenses means the ordinary and
necessary expenses incurred in connection with a user’s
business or trade.

ineligible transaction means any of the following,
when debited to your account:


(d) business expenses;

Very similar. As I mentioned above, I don't think it would be hard to prove business expenses in breach of t&c's.

 

[ronicat]

I had a purchase on my ERQCC denied over the weekend - I had over $20000 available when I tried to make a purchase of $50. When I rang to check if there was a problem I was asked to call back Monday.
This morning I was told that my account was closed and to refer to section 26.1 we may at any time without prior notice, cancel or suspend a card... The representative could not see a reason for the account being closed as I have always paid before the due date. She referred me to HSBC CSR who is also referring to section 26.1 and cannot see any reason for the closure. The card can not be reopened but I am welcome to apply again (can't see this happening but I do want a Qantas earner). Apparently it will not affect my credit rating as I was not declined a card and did not default. Doesn't fix the embarrassment of having my credit challenged in front of people I know, the fact that I couldn't make the purchases I had driven 700km to make, or the incredible fact that someone can remove your credit without notice or reason. I did not receive a letter or 21 day notice.
I had not used the card for obvious business reasons (I say obvious because as a partnership expenses such as licences, paper etc may be proportioned to business). I had never been over my limit or not paid on time. My spend on this card is usually $200000-$30000 in a month however I had spent more in December than usual with Christmas, holidays etc but not excessively more.
It leaves a bad taste in your mouth that someone has the right to do this to you without reason or warning.

 

[awilcockson]

I had not used the card for obvious business reasons
My spend on this card is usually $200000-$30000 in a month

Did you mean $20K or $200K?

$20K a month in personal spending I guess is possible, $200K I'd say they'd have a fairly strong case to suspect business use.

 

[Deleted User]

Seems the back office is working hard to minimise their points liability...

Ladies, & Gentlemen.....Of Business...

Enjoy this card while it lasts, however I fear there will be many more of these card closures in the near future, get'em while they last

 

[awilcockson]

Enjoy this card while it lasts, however I fear there will be many more of these card closures in the near future, get'em while they last

Glad I only put a couple of grand a month through my card (no business expenses, and only spend at places that won't accept the Amex). I agree that it looks as though there might be more and more of these letters going out.

What I don't get though, is that surely they are making money on the purchases, so why do they care. It's a platinum card, so IIRC that equates to a fee of approx 3.5% to the merchant. Surely this would easily cover the cost of the points they are giving away?

 

[Deleted User]

I had a purchase on my ERQCC denied over the weekend - I had over $20000 available when I tried to make a purchase of $50. When I rang to check if there was a problem I was asked to call back Monday.
This morning I was told that my account was closed and to refer to section 26.1 we may at any time without prior notice, cancel or suspend a card... The representative could not see a reason for the account being closed as I have always paid before the due date. She referred me to HSBC CSR who is also referring to section 26.1 and cannot see any reason for the closure. The card can not be reopened but I am welcome to apply again (can't see this happening but I do want a Qantas earner). Apparently it will not affect my credit rating as I was not declined a card and did not default. Doesn't fix the embarrassment of having my credit challenged in front of people I know, the fact that I couldn't make the purchases I had driven 700km to make, or the incredible fact that someone can remove your credit without notice or reason. I did not receive a letter or 21 day notice.
I had not used the card for obvious business reasons (I say obvious because as a partnership expenses such as licences, paper etc may be proportioned to business). I had never been over my limit or not paid on time. My spend on this card is usually $200000-$30000 in a month however I had spent more in December than usual with Christmas, holidays etc but not excessively more.
It leaves a bad taste in your mouth that someone has the right to do this to you without reason or warning.

A question many of us would like to know is: -

1. Did you make payments specific to business activity (ie paying regular companies or suppliers for goods or services)...?
2. Did you make business tax payments to the ATO via the online portal...?

If your annual spend is significantly greater, than what you reported your income as when applying for this card, then they could see it as business use. i.e if you reported a taxable income of $100k, but you put through $150k-$200k, then they quite rightly see that spend level as not being personal...

 

[ronicat]

Sorry I meant $20,000
I live in the country and all of my children have had to move to the city for education purposes so there are school and boarding fees, university fees, personal tax, daughter getting married, medical etc
I'm sure they could look at the places items were purchased from and determine the nature of most transactions