Why fly business? I don't see the value?

[Bali Belly]

An interesting thread and as usual different opinions and tastes.

Would I pay for business class travel? Short haul business class is a waste of money and long haul business class airfares at face value are way too expensive.

Personally I prefer to travel overseas as often as possible so look for ways to maximise my trips on the cheapest (full-service) airfares available. At the moment that travel is in economy but hopefully will soon become travel in business class for not much more than economy travel.

So true it is a harsh choice to fly business class when you can plan an extra trip in economy latter on

 

[ozmille]

Sittingl in LHR at the moment waiting for my flight to BRU. After a couple of glasses of red on my way over from SYD via BKK I ventured downstairs to have a walk to the back of the bus. This walk confirms why I personally decide to fly J. I would go barking mad if I was was stuck at the back for 24hours. After a good night sleep I can now work in the lounge and go to my meeting when I arrive in BRU. For me OZ to Eurpe is just too far to do at the back. (very personal opinion ;-) )

 

[rechoboam]

So true it is a harsh choice to fly business class when you can plan an extra trip in economy latter on

Quality not quantity for me

 

[Moopere]

I've been following this thread for a while and its obvious after so many pages of responses, some of which are quite vigorously argued, that we'll never come close to a consensus. However, its strikes me that many are making affordability judgments, not what I would necessarily call value judgments.

Value judgments are just as subjective of course. What really is "value for money"?

Nevertheless, for the sake of pondering. Imagine that you were granted a magic wish and money, though present, did not need to be a consideration when booking a seat. Money still changes hands upon the booking, but whether its cheaper or more expensive is not a bother because its like the difference between ordering a cheeseburger with extra cheese or not. The cost is not the bother, its a matter of whether you actually like that much cheese.

In all other ways things are normal. So, your ethical and other 'value' judgments, as a function of your personality, are the same. Buying an F or J ticket today won't shorten or cheapen your experience at the destination nor will it restrict future travel opportunities or cause problems with the house mortgage ... none of that.....its simply, do I want more cheese with my cheeseburger and is the extra 50c good value for that additional cheese? With limitless cash for 50c upgrades of cheese for your cheeseburgers, would you eat twice as many?

More of everything is not always better, nor is being more frugal always more responsible.

Any other conversation may be inherently flawed because it is masking the so called "value judgment" with our own personal financial positions, its not so much a value judgment as it is an affordability judgment. Not everyone with essentially limitless cashflow buys everything thats on the top shelf - Warren Buffet until relatively recently reportedly drove about in a 20 year old Chev when he could clearly afford a new plush vehicle any moment the whimsy took him.

Now, without showing my hand at all, as I'm trying to be as neutral as one can be with comments like I've made above - I ponder the relative cheapness of flight in any class. 18 years ago or so when I took my first overseas trip to the middle east it cost me then within a few hundred aussie dollars of what it costs me now for the same trip despite vastly better planes, cost of living has multiplied several times over, wages in general, not only my own, multiplied again.

Given the number of days of my labour I needed to save to buy the Y ticket to Jordan back in thr nineties, compared to the number of days I need to save for the same ticket now, shouldn't I be travelling J all the time? If not, why not? Is flying better 'value' now? Or was it just particularly bad value then?

 

[BadgerBoi]

Sittingl in LHR at the moment waiting for my flight to BRU. After a couple of glasses of red on my way over from SYD via BKK I ventured downstairs to have a walk to the back of the bus. This walk confirms why I personally decide to fly J. I would go barking mad if I was was stuck at the back for 24hours. After a good night sleep I can now work in the lounge and go to my meeting when I arrive in BRU. For me OZ to Eurpe is just too far to do at the back. (very personal opinion ;-) )

Your post made me realise why J long-haul represents true value to me. It actually gives me an extra two days of my life, eg I hit Paris running when I get off the plane on the way there, and I hit Sydney running on my way home. The people getting off my flights who had been sitting down the back looked like they'd been through the wringer.

The one time I went to Europe flying whY I felt wretched for a couple of days either way, and I was a lot younger and fitter way back then.

 

[rechoboam]

Your post made me realise why J long-haul represents true value to me. It actually gives me an extra two days of my life, eg I hit Paris running when I get off the plane on the way there, and I hit Sydney running on my way home. The people getting off my flights who had been sitting down the back looked like they'd been through the wringer.

The one time I went to Europe flying whY I felt wretched for a couple of days either way, and I was a lot younger and fitter way back then.

Good point. I remember flying back from Europe after a year working there, and I actually was dreading the trip back for weeks..

The point made above about relative cheapness is good too. I remember paying $1400 for a return to Europe, on one of the world's worst airlines, (when I was a student cleaning toilets after hours to save up for travel) in 1992. If travel is worth the same to me now as then, why wouldn't I save up the same way I saved then and buy a Y+ ticket? Same price really (probably cheaper). And in fact back then if I scored an op-up to business, it was only really like Y+ is now. Is that right? Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[JohnK]

So true it is a harsh choice to fly business class when you can plan an extra trip in economy latter on

What if the money saved afforded the opportunity to have 4 trips a year to your favourite destination?

I know it is not for everyone but here is a very simple calculation of my recent trip

Airfare ~AUD1,000
Spending on 11 day trip away ~AUD1,400 (including 10 nights accommodation @ AUD25/night, 8 games of golf on resort golf courses, food and beverages etc)
Total cost AUD2,400

I could have easily spent AUD3,000 on business class airfares and AUD100/night to stay at the Holiday Inn for 10 nights which would have been a total waste money as some mornings I could not remember how or what time I got back to the hotel. And once I am asleep the bed in the Holiday Inn is the same as the bed in the budget hotel I stayed.
Total cost AUD5,150

We all look for ways in justifying costs. I would rather have 4 holidays/year watching where I spend my money rather than 2 holidays/year with all the trimmings. I come back after each holiday totally refreshed (which is worth more than anything money can buy) and there is not that long to go for the next trip....

 

[Blackadder]

All well and good if you have the time away from work committments.
As for myself who has one lot of annual leave (5 weeks) on roughly a yearly basis, it gives me more flexibility in saving for a one off J rtn trip O/S, plus money for accomodation at reasonably good hotels,etc.
Like anything YMMV depending on your circumstances, what you look for in a holiday etc.

 

[BadgerBoi]

What if the money saved afforded the opportunity to have 4 trips a year to your favourite destination?

I see your point, but I only get four weeks holiday a year, plus a week's bonus over Christmas and New Year - and at that time of year I'm not in a position to go anywhere.

So four trips in Y to, say Paris, for one week at a time, as opposed to one trip for a month flying J, I'd have to take the latter option. As it stands I probably only take a long holiday trip like that once every two years at best, but it's still better value to me to do it that way in J than more often in whY.

For shorter trips I'll look at alternatives, and for example if I could convince myself that flying Y to Bali won't physically cripple me then I would do it. Any further than that and I just wouldn't consider a trip in Y.

 

[cove]

Why not try a one way in Classic coast to coast for 36,000 points and be your own judge on Qantas or a little less on Virgin by enrolling in an Amex card to get some cheap points for that flight.You will never,never know if you never,never go!

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Business can be poor value at times, and thats why First is better

 

[jamesatfish]

Business can be poor value at times, and thats why First is better

Most definitely agree there - on a Circle Asia 22k mile fare the 'premium' for Business over Economy is 150% ($5600) but the premium for First over Business is only 30% ($2800)...

 

[JohnK]

I see your point, but I only get four weeks holiday a year, plus a week's bonus over Christmas and New Year - and at that time of year I'm not in a position to go anywhere.

True. I am lucky in that I can purchase an additional 2 weeks annual leave and with a little unpaid annual leave as well I can easily make it 3-4 golf trips to Thailand every year. If I could purchase more annual leave then I would do it but not a great burden as I have a flexible employer.

For shorter trips I'll look at alternatives, and for example if I could convince myself that flying Y to Bali won't physically cripple me then I would do it. Any further than that and I just wouldn't consider a trip in Y.

Surviving, at least for me, is as simple as simply convincing oneself that the most important part of the holiday is the destination and the plane trip either side is only an extremely minor inconvenience. I don't know if the statement explains my feelings but I can simply fast forward to the destination and the plane trip is almost insignificant. It helps if one is able to sleep in flight. YMMV.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

there is that old saying 'if you have to ask you probably can't afford it'

there are a whole bunch of people who don't even need to consider the trade off between 4 trips a year vs 1 in business. Or between 1 business class trip and a better hotel. And for whom First class is an automatic booking class. Sure we take value into account, and not being tied to a FF program helps with that. If one airline has a special in First to Europe for $12000 I take that.

The only time I draw the line is where i feel i am being taken advantage of - I don't like being made to look foolish, and a $1970 fare PER-MEL or $600 odd MEL-SYD for an essentially premium economy seat makes me feel that way (the last few domestic business class meals have been dreadful - on par with international economy... and the business class lounges have been pretty grotty and not kept clean).

YMMV

 

[Hvr]

An interesting discussion and of course it depends on what you value. I can't see the purpose of people who drive hugely expensive cars that they apparently don't need. However, I don't have to pay for their choices nor they for mine.

As a single person with no debt I choose to travel in comfort and for me the journey is as much apart of the holiday as the destination. Que sera Que sera.

 

[Durin's Bane]

Yes - value is very subjective, and often does not follow a sliding scale. But I STILL can't see the justification of spending $5982 in Premium Economy, $9482 Business, or (Brian forbid!) $19458 First, when these are 2x, 3x, and 6x the Economy fare respectively. Yes - these are Qantas fares to the UK at Christmas time, and I'm sure I could do a whole lot better on almost any other carrier that flies to the UK. Might even get a J fare for under $6K (though not that I can see at first glance). Still twice the QF economy fare, so if I was paying for 4 that would be $24K rather than $12K. If my family demanded that they fly J long haul I would tell them that for a $12K saving they can either harden up or chose which two of them will be left behind.

I also don't see the justification in spending $5982 in Premium Economy or $9482 Business for visiting a single destination. I usually buy DONE4s or travel regionally in J on CX, JL or SQ in Asia where J fares on some routes are only 20%-30% more than Y. I also never purchase J in Oz on QF or use points to upgrade in Oz on QF. Best value in my eyes is either a DONE4 or long haul points upgrades to J Internationally.

So choose to pay the premium if you want, but don't obscure the argument with status runs to nowhere or third world bargains or super secret deals that you are too scared to tell anyone about. So what?!? I have paid extra points/$ on a couple of occasions when it was a bargain, but it hasn't deluded me into thinking I'm not worthy unless I fly in front of the riff-raff. I certainly DON'T want any of that stuff you're smoking.

Who said anything about being 'worthy' if you're seated in J or F?? Someone's losing the plot. I don't think there is anyone here who thinks they're superior by working hard in order to be able to sit in J or F. The fact you can't afford it isn't my problem, and I couldn't care less. But judging from your comments you've got a chip on your shoulder mate that faceless posters on a forum can't fix.

 

[Awesom Andy]

I also don't see the justification in spending $5982 in Premium Economy or $9482 Business for visiting a single destination.

You would have to be very silly to spend that kind of money on Y+ or J, unless it is peak travel season and you have your dates firmly set. Surely, other carriers would've provided better fares than that.

 

[Alanslegal]

I personally would never ever pay for Premium Economy .... I think that's the biggest waste of $$$

 

[BadgerBoi]

I also don't see the justification in spending $5982 in Premium Economy or $9482 Business for visiting a single destination.

I have never paid anything like that in my life - there are J fares from Sydney to Europe for a little more than half that price.

 

[orac]

Surviving, at least for me, is as simple as simply convincing oneself that the most important part of the holiday is the destination and the plane trip either side is only an extremely minor inconvenience. I don't know if the statement explains my feelings but I can simply fast forward to the destination and the plane trip is almost insignificant. It helps if one is able to sleep in flight. YMMV.

My international travel is always self paid flights. The plane flight is just a means to get there. My holiday starts when I/we arrive at our destination. Always travel international in the economy cabin.