Upgrades? Pffttt

[simongr]

Be careful where you are headed with that line of thought PLaty - you may not like QF but compared to AA and other they do have a good product.

 

[Platy]

Be careful where you are headed with that line of thought PLaty - you may not like QF but compared to AA and other they do have a good product.

Thanks, that's sound advice. Sorry if a little OT...in fact my concerns with QF have mostly (but not entirely) arisen in relation to domestic travel. I don't have any intrinsic issues with their international J product (apart from the disappointment that they seem to treat domestic legs of international services as domestic product these days and maybe the relatively high fuel surcharges).

I was planning to swap my strategy and aim for a DONE4 per year and burn points on domestic travel, rather than try to continue to earn status and points domestically and take the odd overseas trip on points! When QF sales stuffed up my trip back in late July, it spun out my plans!

My final choice of strategy may depend upon the upcoming FF revisions! Those revisions may yet resolve some of the issues aired on this thread!

If points are severely diluted or it becomes very hard to maintain WP, I'll seriously consider a swap to DJ and Star Alliance or Emirates, or simply travel on best price (eg. Etihad J class).

In any case, I am pragmatic enough to make the best of the situation given my own perspective and the wise words of others! :-|

 

[NM]

Thanks for the heads up, Dave. Presumably Qantas also only earns a share on the sectors it supplies? Thus would earn less revenue should say LAN, AA and BA, etc be chosen for majority of flights?

or if you chose to use the AA, BA or LA codeshare flight number on QF-operated flight . It is quite easy to book a xONE4 itinerary with no QF flights.

 

[Platy]

or if you chose to use the AA, BA or LA codeshare flight number on QF-operated flight . It is quite easy to book a xONE4 itinerary with no QF flights.

Thanks for the hot tip!

 

[QF WP]

Thanks for the heads up, Dave. Presumably Qantas also only earns a share on the sectors it supplies? Thus would earn less revenue should say LAN, AA and BA, etc be chosen for majority of flights?

Platy, yes Qantas earn significantly less revenue, given the lack of GST as well as the lack of fuel fines. You'll love the differential in pricing when you start buying tickets on (say) AA ticket stock. After resisting the idea for a while, Dave Noble turned me around last year. I started to ticket almost everything through AA (apart from last minute travel that you can't - that is within 12 hours to travel).

Given that you have said you do a lot of domestic travel (same as me ), as a case in point, on a K class BNE/SYD/PER/ADL/SYD/BNE a month ago, I saved $500 (AUD) on my ticket [$1824 through AA versus $2,300 through the QF website].

I've saved ~$3K in travel costs for 2007 YTD for my company (as well as a bit personally). As the part owner of the business, that goes directly to my pocket. I know whose pocket I'd rather be lining (even though I am a QF shareholder).

If you were looking at an xONE4, the savings would still be significant and you can also re-direct the payment for the flights to the code-share partner, rather than QF.

 

[Platy]

If you were looking at an xONE4, the savings would still be significant and you can also re-direct the payment for the flights to the code-share partner, rather than QF.

Thanks, Lindsay! I am assuming that as a QF WP I am still on full points earn (including the 100% bonus) and SC earn on AA and BA coded flights.

 

[QF WP]

Yes, refer to the QF T&C's Airline Earning Table

It doesn't count towards your 4 flights per year required under the QFF program and you can't use QF points towards upgrades.

 

[Platy]

Yes, refer to the QF T&C's Airline Earning Table

It doesn't count towards your 4 flights per year required under the QFF program and you can't use QF points towards upgrades.

Got it! Thanks, Lindsay!

 

[Reggie]

Correct me if I am wrong, isn't it still called the Qantas Frequent Flyer? I dont see it becoming Qantas frequent spender, or frequent driver, or frequent stayer. I believe that it is only fair that Qantas looks after THEIR frequent flyers first, then others. Agreed, Qantas shouldn't take money from these suppliers for points unless they can use them, but those suppliers should also take some responsibilty for ensuring that their customers receive value for points.. We all remember how quickly westpac, diners club, avis etc quickly said to bad so sad when our points with ANSETT went up in smoke.

 

[Travel Guru]

Correct me if I am wrong, isn't it still called the Qantas Frequent Flyer? I dont see it becoming Qantas frequent spender, or frequent driver, or frequent stayer. I believe that it is only fair that Qantas looks after THEIR frequent flyers first, then others. Agreed, Qantas shouldn't take money from these suppliers for points unless they can use them, but those suppliers should also take some responsibilty for ensuring that their customers receive value for points.. We all remember how quickly westpac, diners club, avis etc quickly said to bad so sad when our points with ANSETT went up in smoke.

Well said Reggie!

TG

 

[Platy]

Correct me if I am wrong, isn't it still called the Qantas Frequent Flyer? I dont see it becoming Qantas frequent spender, or frequent driver, or frequent stayer

Yes, you are right Reggie, it is called The Frequent Flyer Scheme.

I may have missed the intended meaning of your post - are we agreed that it is an unavoidable fact (whether rightly or wrongly) that an essential part of its brand promise, its value proposition, its attractiveness, as clearly marketed to its members, include additional member benefits, such as access to both points earn and point redemption opportunities through "partner" organisations....."As a Qantas Frequent Flyer you can earn points faster with over 140 partners". Meanwhile Qantas rakes in the cash by selling points to partners to entice loyalty in their end customers knowing that many of those points will never be redeemed.

OK, you might be a person who flies a lot, but don't you also get points for using your credit card for paying for those flights and staying in a partner hotel and driving a partner hire car when yo uget to your destination?

There is thus clearly an inferred expectation for members to quite legitimately earn and burn points through a combination of the airline and its 140 partners, however they earn their points, credit card, car hire, flying or whatever. As a flyer you might get additional privilege by having status (Gold, Platinum etc).

Yes, the partner organisations are paying Qantas for those points in the expectation that their customers will indeed receive value for those points from Qantas!!! Otherwise Qantas is gaining revenue from partners without delivering their end of the deal. As a customer you don't want to be left high and dry without being able to use your points or find the airline goes bust. The danger (aka Ansett) is the accruing liability of unused points, which hitherto Qantas have evidently not been so concerned about to make redemption and upgrades more accessible to lower that liability - that danger is partly sidestepped by accounting practices (discussed in this thread and earlier posts) and by ensuring the scheme is always growing sufficiently for new revenue to justify the liability legacy.

We may indeed see more redemption opportunities when the FF scheme changes in the new year eg. increasingly using points to pay for goods, openiong up more airline seats to frequent flyers.

The other "con" is the airline lowering its liability of unused points by betraying the trust of the customer (albeit within the fine print) by diluting the value of their points - thus a 37,500 points for business class return SYD-CNS became a 72,000 point trip a few years ago, etc etc, albeit with a period of notice.

Rightly or wrongly, at the end of the day Qantas are very unlikely to purge their scheme to focus just on flyers since they make their upfront cash revenue from these partner arrangements. Providing flying tier status is recognised appropriately I don't see a problem!

I personally don't care whether the person who is actually sitting next to me on an aircraft has paid for that seat or earned that seat through loyalty to a credit card, hotel chain, the airline or any combination of those, providing I am being looked after according to what I have been led to expect as a member of the scheme.

 

[simongr]

I think you might be being a little overly generous to the partners. I don't see them as innocent bystanders who look shocked that some of the points they paid QF for dont get redeemed.

In any form or reward/loyalty system there is an expectation that you wont pay out on every purchase. The modelling for pricing will have factored in some form of non-redemption rate.

This is also something where the punters know that they have restrictions on how/when the redeem the value of the points earned at the outset. Anyone who got an Amex rewards maxmiser card with the expectation that they could have any flight that they wanted at any time is a fool.

 

[Dave Noble]

OK, you might be a person who flies a lot, but don't you also get points for using your credit card for paying for those flights and staying in a partner hotel and driving a partner hire car when yo uget to your destination?

Well, my FF earnings are solely[1] from flying since I don't use credit cards, don't earn miles on car hires due to the rates I pay nor do I earn FF miles from hotel stays

[1]there are a few small exceptions like the 2,000 FF miles birthday voucher from Hertz and the 5,000 bonus per 450SC

Dave

 

[NM]

Well, my FF earnings are solely[1] from flying since I don't use credit cards, don't earn miles on car hires due to the rates I pay nor do I earn FF miles from hotel stays

[1]there are a few small exceptions like the 2,000 FF miles birthday voucher from Hertz and the 5,000 bonus per 450SC

Dave

I am in a similar boat. I have not used CC for FF points in over 5 years. My CC points stay in the Frequent Spender program and my hotel stays credit to my Frequent Stayer programs. So I would say that well over 90% of my QF and AA FF points/miles have been earned by BIS (butt-in-seat).

 

[Platy]

Well, my FF earnings are solely[1] from flying since I don't use credit cards, don't earn miles on car hires due to the rates I pay nor do I earn FF miles from hotel stays

Those are your choices, Dave (and NM), and that puts you at one end of a very broad spectrum of points earning combinations. To be honest I have found myself moving in that direction now that I use a VISA debit card rather than the AMEX exclusively and since the ANZ VISA card got slammed with a monthly points earn cap.

I can't see why that makes you/me more "worthy" than someone else who has earned their QF FF scheme points within the rules as defined. DAve, don't you use your Hilton Honors membership to double dip for both Hilton and partner points? (perhaps you keep them just for hotel stays). Their book direct online rate is supposed to be lowest price guaranteed and allows dopuble dip points earn?

Are you saying you would like an exclusive FF scheme just for flyers? Do WP privileges not give you sufficient status in such things? What would you like QF to do to improve their scheme for your particular point of view and preferences?

 

[Platy]

In any form or reward/loyalty system there is an expectation that you wont pay out on every purchase. The modelling for pricing will have factored in some form of non-redemption rate

Yes, indeed, Simon. Furthermore, many partners, including many hotels in my experience, want the kudos and marketing benefit of being a Qf FF partner , BUT then won't award points on many of their rates. We have already explored this in another thread with people sharing many examples of their own experiences on hotels not giving points.

 

[Dave Noble]

I can't see why that makes you/me more "worthy" than someone else who has earned their QF FF scheme points within the rules as defined. DAve, don't you use your Hilton Honors membership to double dip for both Hilton and partner points? (perhaps you keep them just for hotel stays). Their book direct online rate is supposed to be lowest price guaranteed and allows dopuble dip points earn?

Are you saying you would like an exclusive FF scheme just for flyers? Do WP privileges not give you sufficient status in such things? What would you like QF to do to improve their scheme for your particular point of view and preferences?

I v rarely stay at Hiltons these days since I view them as overpriced, so don't earn anything from them currently

I would love an FF scheme that was purely a FF scheme unlike the Qantas Frequent Credit Card Spender scheme and that the costs for awards were dropped since they didnt need to be inflated to allow for ridiculous CC earnings

As an example, I just received an offer for an Amex Ultimate card with 30,000 FF points bribe together with the card offering a free domestic flight; Offering 22,500 ( which is the base earning.... 5000 for 1st spend and 2500 for 1st qantas spend ) points for absolutely nothing is the type of thing which leads to award inflation

That has reminded me tho to contact QF and rip someone's throat out for sending me unsolicited mail

[upd] Hmm..interesting, the spam settings on profile apparantly arnt designed to stop spam but you can phone QFF and they can put you on the "I wasn't joking, I really don't want to be spammed" list that they maintain

Dave

 

[Reggie]

Yes, you are right Reggie, it is called The Frequent Flyer Scheme.

I may have missed the intended meaning of your post - are we agreed that it is an unavoidable fact (whether rightly or wrongly) that an essential part of its brand promise, its value proposition, its attractiveness, as clearly marketed to its members, include additional member benefits, such as access to both points earn and point redemption opportunities through "partner" organisations....."As a Qantas Frequent Flyer you can earn points faster with over 140 partners". Meanwhile Qantas rakes in the cash by selling points to partners to entice loyalty in their end customers knowing that many of those points will never be redeemed.

As you stated, it is an additional benefit, not the primary.

OK, you might be a person who flies a lot, but don't you also get points for using your credit card for paying for those flights and staying in a partner hotel and driving a partner hire car when yo uget to your destination?

I get points from hire car and hotels that have it, but thats because they are available. I NEVER transfer points from my credit card's, Westpac and Diners saw to that with the number of points I lost with Ansett. All my frequent spend points are used for vouchrs to HN's, Bunnings etc. Actually I am the proud of owner of a DVD recorder with a 160GB hard drive and Digital reciever thanks to Citibank. Cost me nothing, as work remiburses the annual fee, and I put all my expenses on the card.

 

[Reggie]

I am in a similar boat. I have not used CC for FF points in over 5 years. My CC points stay in the Frequent Spender program.... So I would say that well over 90% of my QF and AA FF points/miles have been earned by BIS (butt-in-seat).

Same here, once bitten, twice shy

 

[Platy]

IAs an example, I just received an offer for an Amex Ultimate card with 30,000 FF points bribe together with the card offering a free domestic flight; Offering 22,500 ( which is the base earning.... 5000 for 1st spend and 2500 for 1st qantas spend ) points for absolutely nothing is the type of thing which leads to award inflation

That has reminded me tho to contact QF and rip someone's throat out for sending me unsolicited mailDave

Fortunately, the local Cairns Hilton is relatively cheap (can sometimes get a room for $150) - yes, the main city ones are out of my price range.

I guess it reflects the value of CC customers that CC suppliers can afford to offer such incentives.

The eventual problem is too many points being sold so QF can make a buck!!!

I doubt QF will give up the revenue from the CC suppliers through points sales unless that legacy of the points liability becomes unmanageable.

Why can't the situation be managed through status, which is status credit (flying volume) dependent not point dependent?

Yeah, I received an unsolicited customer research survey a couple of months ago - it took a lot of effort to get an apology and recognition that if it had happened to me there might be a systemic error in their database sampling...(ie they hadn't excluded those who ticked the "no" box in their online profile)..had to go through ANOP in the end to get anyone at QF to communicate meaningfully.

Got myslef off their mailing list for general unsolicited cough (eg ironically CC offers) some time ago and removed my address in my profile to make sure!!!