Upgrades? Pffttt

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josko said:
< snip >

Moral of the story......refrain from cracking it at the Q operators and father xmas will look after you!:mrgreen:

Two points:

First - completely agree, don't get stroppy with the staff who can't fix what they didnt break (I did have a few DYKWIA moments almost when I got misinformation regarding my laptop displacement that led to me having to check bags unnecessarily)

Second - this is a reason why QF shouldnt be offering last minute UGs - people do book at the last minute and wouldn't you feel more agrieved to be dumped out of a J seat when you thought you had one?
 
simongr said:
It is about protecting the revenue. If you have more assurance regarding upgrades or more opportunities to upgrade then you are more likely to book in whY and upgrade.

Maybe you are right and that may be indeed the way those folk at Qantas rationalise their strategy, BUT in many cases it puts them at odds with their customers . Please consider:

1. You already have to pay a higher Y fare if you want to upgrade.

2. In my case, they are close to losing my business over the increasing costs of J, arrogance towards their customers, and especially relating to these stupid games they play when it comes to rewarding loyalty. The increasing cost of J class means I will not pay the stupidly high fares they are trying to charge on the domestic routes I travel. They have LOST revenue from a (this) passenger because now I only spend on discount Y rather than on sensibly priced J. I have given up trying to pay the higher Y fares in case of an upgrade because it is often a wasted effort and leads to disappointment especially when there are PLENTY of empty seats. They have driven me into becoming a low revenue passenger from a high revenue one! Now I have blown most of my points on a first class UK run my incentive to stick with Qantas is at a low point of the cycle of accumulating and burning points. The changes to the FF scheme will determine whether I cease my business with QF in the new year. Apart from my lost business I can quote the names and travel profiles of several friends who have ceased to do business with Qantas leading to a LOSS of REVENUE of close to $200,000/yr equivalent, because of poor service, high product cost and general arrogance towards customers. So much for protecting revenue.

3. I have heard it said that many employers now refuse to pay J class for their employees, they can no longer justify the cost. Many passengers may not have a choice because their travel is dictated to them and in these cases Qantas have priced themselves out of a certain market. Once again, so much for protecting revenue.

4. If the price differential between J and Y wasn't so great there wouldn't be so much of a percieved issue.

5. The double whammy is that once you have made people into Y class passengers, you are competiting directly with Virgin Blue. So long as they are travelling J or upgrading you have a PRODUCT DIFFERENTIATOR, if not you have lost key benefits with which to build your value proposition.

6. People who have the points to upgrade have damned well EARNED them. You are effectively advocating that they should not be allowed to use them!

7. Qantas has ALREADY earned REVENUE by customers flying extensively with them in order to get the points to be able to upgrade in the first place. Similarly, for those with credit card earn Qantas has similarly ALREADY earned REVENUE by selling the points to the partner company.

8. If Qantas was dinkum about lowering its liability of unused points and looking affter its customers it would release more seats for upgrade/redemption rather than using accounting practices, which appear to make the seat more valuable left empty!

9. Qantas books revenue from points sold to partners for points which it predicts will never be redeemed. Thus there is a potential incentive to dissuade people from using their points and/or to delay them using their points!

10. Customers (some not all) are frustrated. Creating negativity in customers in a competitive marketplace is dumb!

11. Qantas are not giving due concern to the customer experience. Again, dumb, in a competitive marketplace!

To repeat earlier posts, I have had many instances of being refused upgrades when they have been PLENTY of empty seats on aircraft, so these arguments about leaving the odd seat for a late booking etc just don't wash.
 
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Ric said:
Food for thought......
Do we seriously and realistically think that QF staff have no way of manipulating the allocation system to get them a J class seat confirmed on discount staff travel ahead of points upgrade requests?? A matter of you scratch my back, I scratch yours?:shock:
Not saying that they are doing it, but just for discussion sake....;)

Yeah, I believe I have watched staff break the rules here in CNS. I have also found discount staff seem to get the better seats. Go figure.
 
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simongr said:
they are releasing seats for which they expect to receive no revenue so there is no cost to them for giving you the seat.

Thanks for the info. But there are other pertinent questions:

1. What about cases where people earn points from partners! (why aren't they relevant to us?)
2. How do the accounting practices value a seat in terms of a redemption or upgrade passenger in relation to a) reducing points liability and b) assigning revenue from points earn
3. How does their strategy account for customer satisfaction regarding the FF scheme and award opportunuities
 
If setting up ones own airline, could set any set of rules for redemptions/costings as desired

Regardless of the whining, it seems that QF has managed to use a model that is allowing them to operate as a pretty profitable airline

Dave
 
Dave Noble said:
Regardless of the whining, it seems that QF has managed to use a model that is allowing them to operate as a pretty profitable airline
And while changing that model may benefit some customers, it would annoy others. I think its a case of no model is perfect to suit all the people all the time.
 
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You have a number of completely unrelated arguments there that you seem to be sticthing together to make a point about upgrades.

Firstly the pricing of J seats. You ar enot happy with the price of the J seat - I am not either but every international flight I take J is pretty much full (the least full was ADL-SYD on QF82) so people may not be happy but they are paying the price. there is thus no incentive to reduce prices on those seats - in fact given the massive capital program adding to seat number at an expectedly higher price a reduction is not on the cards.

The pricing of J seats is not related to the lack of availability of upgrades - you seem to be arguing that peole are leaving QF because of pricing, arrogance and service and I am sure this is true - but none of this is about upgrade availability.

You keep arguing that the QF strategy is dumb/wrong but they ARE the world's most profitable airline, they have hundreds of people working on getting their marketing and strategy right - so they must be doing something right.

You are not happy which is clear - but you are just one or even 20 voices. QF may get a shock if there is more opening of the skies but at the moment we are stuck with a system that works for some people.
 
Dave Noble said:
If setting up ones own airline, could set any set of rules for redemptions/costings as desired...Regardless of the whining, it seems that QF has managed to use a model that is allowing them to operate as a pretty profitable airlineDave

Of course the airline can set the rules up any way they like (within the law)! Nobody is denying that. Yes they make a profit, but they are also pissing off passengers, hence this thread!

I am disappointed that you consider legitimate customer concerns to be "whining", but I continue to respect your point of view.

I am surprised at the pro-airline rather than the pro-customer point of view of many posts - perhaps it is time for anyone for works for the airline(s) to reveal their interests, if indeed any exist.
 
Platy said:
Thanks for the info. But there are other pertinent questions:

1. What about cases where people earn points from partners! (why aren't they relevant to us?)
2. How do the accounting practices value a seat in terms of a redemption or upgrade passenger in relation to a) reducing points liability and b) assigning revenue from points earn
3. How does their strategy account for customer satisfaction regarding the FF scheme and award opportunuities

1 - I would assume that earning points on partners is eitehr accounted as CC spend or more likely as a normal QFF earn in that they receive revenue when the ticket is purchased/flown and then have the "liability" after that.

2 - I assume that there is some actuarial calculation of the number of points that will be redeemed based on historic probablities etc so when some redeems points that will impact the assumptions underlying the calculations and will will reduce the base pool of points that is used to assess the "liability". The revenue earned is just taken straight to revenue when the points are earned - there should be no assignment of a value to that.

3 - I have no inside knowledge of how their strategy accounts for customer satisfaction with the program. They must be continuing to believe that pax have yet to reach their breaking point of dissatisfaction with the program. The advantage that QF have is that all programs are being devalued progressively so there is generally perceived better alternative.
 
Platy said:
I am surprised at the pro-airline rather than the pro-customer point of view of many posts - perhaps it is time for anyone for works for the airline(s) to reveal their interests, if indeed any exist.

I have no personal vested interest in the airline - I am not even a true QFFer anymore - having switched programs but keeping some points/SCs flowing in to enable upgrades to F.

I am not pro the airline - mostly just pointing out that what you are asking for is just not in the airline's short term interests and the long term is something that we can not foretell. It would be great if there was anytime access to seats and upgrades - but as a paid J flyer I dont want the product devalued to AA standards so that people earning heaps of points on CCs get more free seats. If that happened I would stop flying QF.
 
simongr said:
You ar enot happy with the price of the J seat...The pricing of J seats is not related to the lack of availability of upgrades - you seem to be arguing that peole are leaving QF because of pricing, arrogance and service and I am sure this is true - but none of this is about upgrade availability....so they must be doing something right...we are stuck with a system that works for some people.

Thanks, Simon. Just to clarify, my frustration with J pricing is on the domestic routes, which I frequent and I agree the internatinal pricing must be working. Our perspectives may differ due to my mainly domestic travel profile.

The pricing of J seats IS related to the dilution suggestion aired in your post because that logic depends on the price differential between Y and J. Furthermore, in cases where there are plenty of empty seats, PERHAPS, the J seat cost is too high for those seats to attract revenue pasengers.

Denying upgrades where there are PLENTY of empty seats is causing angst with customers. It seems self evident to me that the airline could do more in these situations, but I have to accept that some appear not to agree!

Yes, of course they are doing something right and making a profit. Yes, of course as frequent flyers we learn how to work the existing system and "make it work". This blog is an extremely valuable resource in helping with just that!
 
Platy said:
I am surprised at the pro-airline rather than the pro-customer point of view of many posts - perhaps it is time for anyone for works for the airline(s) to reveal their interests, if indeed any exist.

There is nothing pro customer imo if they started going the other way where upgrades are given out more freely than candy like on AA and ending up with the front cabin becoming virtually an upgrade cabin

The system operates as specified; upgrades can be obtained; QF will not just give every seat away to upgrades but keeps availability for paying passengers

QF operates as a profitable company, which is definitely beneficial as a customer

Dave
 
simongr said:
If that happened I would stop flying QF.

Simon, many thanks for your insights an ideas. It will certainly be interesting to see what happens as program changes are announced!

I might have a different perspective if I had flown AA.
 
Dave Noble said:
The system operates as specified; upgrades can be obtained; QF will not just give every seat away to upgrades but keeps availability for paying passengers

Thanks, Dave, for your point of view.

The next time I get on a 767 with a half empty J class I'll have a far better idea of why flying that aircraft with all of those empty seats is helping Qantas to a record profit.

It's moot anyway since I just go to the back of the aircraft these days and try to score two or three seats to myself in Y, chat to the back galley crew and chomp down on some food sequestered from the QP!!!

The $15,000 a year I now save on domestic travel can go towards a DONE4 bought from AA!!! :D
 
Platy said:
The $15,000 a year I now save on domestic travel can go towards a DONE4 bought from AA!!! :D

Whether you buy from AA or QF, the allocation on the ticket fee is the same I believe; QF obviously loses out on their excessive fuel fines though

Dave
 
I think a core issue is the expectation given by Qantas and its partners that the points earned by spending money with them (airfares, CC, whatever) will be able to be redeemed for flights, upgrades, etc.

Qantas sets the level of earn and burn, which is their right, and at least people can assess the value/cost of earning those points. For example - is it worth taking a 2% CC hit for the value of points "purchased" in this manner?

The fact that over time Qantas have bumped up the points required and lumped in "taxes" to devalue them further is one hot topic of discussion, but the point of this thread is that at their discretion, Qantas refuses to allow customers to use these points. Even worse - they introduce a caste system that allows only higher status travellers to redeem points.

Now "worse" is a subjective term because a great many people on this forum agree with this system (let's call them the "Brahmins"), whilst others further down the food chain get rather hot under the collar. As long as Qantas keeps enough people happy about the current state of affairs, then they can keep feeding the other half cow-shiite about their points actually being worth anything. You would think that people that were treated as second-class citizens on their trek from Bronze to Silver to Gold would remember what it felt like, but there's no one as racist as a recent immigrant who is happy to have the door shut behind them.

On a similar note - I never bother with the upgrade caper since they did away with upgrade credits, but right now I should be planning the next family O/S trip (Sept/Oct 2008). Instead I find that there are no FF seats available for many of the legs I would like to take ... what a surprise. I intend to have a full and frank discussion with Qantas about this, but in the end it is up to me to tell them where to stick their arrogance and switch sides to Virgin and *A.


Cheers,


Andrew

.
 
acampbel said:
I intend to have a full and frank discussion with Qantas about this, but in the end it is up to me to tell them where to stick their arrogance and switch sides to Virgin and *A

Many thanks, Andrew, for sharing your opinions on the issue! I agree with you entirely and have written at great length to the senior management at Qantas and am shortly due to meet with them.

I also can't see how someone who has earned lots of points, say on a credit card, is less worthy than someone who has earned the points by flying, (or in combination) or why indeed their expectation of a pay back for their loyalty should be so frowned upon (why does it matter to you as a passenger whether the person next to you is a paying customer or upgrade/redemption passenger)! The airline has received the cash for their loyalty, but doesn't really want to deliver! Nor is the airline advancing an argument publicly (as far as I know) on business class cabin dilution - that is hypothetical speculation by some. ;)
 
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Dave Noble said:
Whether you buy from AA or QF, the allocation on the ticket fee is the same I believe; QF obviously loses out on their excessive fuel fines though

Thanks for the heads up, Dave. Presumably Qantas also only earns a share on the sectors it supplies? Thus would earn less revenue should say LAN, AA and BA, etc be chosen for majority of flights?
 
simongr said:
Also wouldnt $15K buy you an AONE4 ;)

Sure would! I'm thinking the $15k would be a good budget for an ex NRT DONE4 plus the flights CNS-NRT and some spending money.

Alternatively, a AONE4 ex-Mauritius, plus a SYD-MRU return, plus spending budget! :D
 
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