The rights of the tall

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drron

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you are making this way too complicated. I clearly outlined in my post one option of how it might be done, but that doesn't seem to have been read....

qantas could easily publish, on its website, a list of conditions and the seats applicable to those. for example, IBS - requires aisle seat, colostomy bag - aisle seat. severe motion sickness - window seat etc etc. Doctor's note says 'patient meets requirement under published list'. This could be completed on an accepted form and faxed from the doctor's office. It really is not that hard.

of course the doctor would not say something as stupid as the patient would benefit from extra legroom if they are tall... that would be obvious when the passenger turns up at the airport.

Yes of course there will be a rouge doctor out there that will send in a form for their patient even if they don't have that condition... but most doctors take their responsibilities seriously. just as a doctor now has to certify fitness to fly in certain circumstances.

just in the same way that qantas can now sell an exit row seat but deny it if you turn up and are not suitable.... if you had a note in your booking saying 'tall pax' and they turned up being 5'6 then you deny them the seat.

There really is nothing complicated about this... just drawing up the list of eligible conditions... and that list can be added to... it doesn't need to be perfect to start with...

First of all it already can be done as I have done itfor a patient.Fractured ankle asked QF for a bulkhead or aisle seat-allocated bulkhead,aisle.

Second there dont have to be rogue doctors.You are a GP.A patient of 20 years comes in and asks for such a certificate.Doesn't quite meet the standard.Certificate often written out.Just look at sickness certificates or disabled driver forms.It is obvious many do not really meet the standards.
 

SighMN

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Frankly I think all airlines across the world should adhere to a minimum seat pitch of 34 inches and at least 18 inch width on long-haul flights (more than 4 hours). Some airlines us that minimum like Malaysian and they are proftiable so obviously that business model works. Its just the greedy individuals who look at profits that make seats 31 inch pitch with 17 inch width. They should make all those businessmen sit on one of their airplanes in the economy cabin for 24 hours. 34 inches and 18 inches isn't that luxurious but it does provide for a modicum of personal space and legroom.
 

drron

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Frankly I think all airlines across the world should adhere to a minimum seat pitch of 34 inches and at least 18 inch width on long-haul flights (more than 4 hours). Some airlines us that minimum like Malaysian and they are proftiable so obviously that business model works. Its just the greedy individuals who look at profits that make seats 31 inch pitch with 17 inch width. They should make all those businessmen sit on one of their airplanes in the economy cabin for 24 hours. 34 inches and 18 inches isn't that luxurious but it does provide for a modicum of personal space and legroom.

You have given the argument as to why airlines dont have a higher seat pitch-
Malaysian Airline System Bhd. (MAS) , the national carrier, sank 4.9 percent to 1.56 ringgit, its lowest close since Aug. 2. The company posted a second consecutive quarterly loss in the three months ended June as higher fuel costs eroded gains from an increase in passengers. The airline narrowed its loss to 527 million ringgit from 535 million ringgit a year earlier, the carrier said in a statement.
From-
Malaysia Stocks: AirAsia, CIMB Group, Malaysian Airline, MMC - Bloomberg

Thats why it is forming an alliance with Air asia.
 

harvyk

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MEL_Traveller, I think your making things too complex. Airlines state that if you choose to fly with us in this particular class of travel, you will receive x amount of space.
It is then up to the traveller to determine if the product on offer is suitable for their needs. The fact is that not all products will suit all people, it is upto the individual person to determine if the product suits their needs. I don't see how promises made by a travel agent counts as a guarantee by an airline, especially when airlines state that no seat is guaranteed, even after boarding. Surely the TA, even if dopey enough to book the guy into an exit row without paying would know that no seat in any class is guaranteed.


In regards to suing because the guy didn't get an exit row, well I also find exit rows infinitely more comfortable when I sit there, especially when there is no one in the middle seat. Should I sue the airline because every so oftan I didn’t get the exit row? What about the time that I was given a boarding pass for seat 14F, and minutes before boarding there was a last minute equipment swap from a 737-800 to a 737-400 making 14F just another Y seat. Should I be suing for that because the flight was no where near as comfortable as what I had expected?



Hell hath no fury like a NB Mr & Mrs Kettle on their once-a-year holiday when they can't get 4AB/23AB at T-24 when they OLCI, scary stuff let me tell you. :shock:

I still want to know if Adam Menzies the person at the centre of this article, travelled to the US with his wife and child? Because if he did, that would really explain a lot of things & yes, plenty of people with infants ask for the exit row.

So very very true... :shock:
 

Justchecking

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The basics of the case are to me this.....

The passenger knows he is an extra tall guy. It not like he woke up on the morning of his trip 2ft taller than before. He also had the same opportunity as every other passenger to know that a standard Y seat would not be suitable for him in terms of comfort. He chose to book a Y seat anyway.
And there's the crux if it, he exercised his choice to place himself in a position of discomfort.

Now he has only the choice of available Y seats, which is the same choice as every other Y passenger. The airline does offer the option to ensure a long legroom seat at additional cost. Everyone who takes that option pays the additional cost regardless of their height. He was asked to do the same,
and is now suing an airline for giving him the sa
me choice as every other pax travelling on a stan
dard Y fare.

Excuse me if I fail to see where this passenger has been hard done by. It seems to me that He expected preferential treatment because of his
height and a lack of it is what he is really stewing about.

FYI- I know a person who purposefully books herself into Y seats, middle position as a way to get a free upgrade. She has a leg condition which means she can't physically fit into a middle seat. She also knows that if she waits until the aircraft is boarded the likely only alternative seats are going to be in J and the crew will take pity on her and move her into one.
 
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MEL_Traveller

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MEL_Traveller, I think your making things too complex. Airlines state that if you choose to fly with us in this particular class of travel, you will receive x amount of space.
It is then up to the traveller to determine if the product on offer is suitable for their needs. The fact is that not all products will suit all people, it is upto the individual person to determine if the product suits their needs. I don't see how promises made by a travel agent counts as a guarantee by an airline, especially when airlines state that no seat is guaranteed, even after boarding. Surely the TA, even if dopey enough to book the guy into an exit row without paying would know that no seat in any class is guaranteed.


In regards to suing because the guy didn't get an exit row, well I also find exit rows infinitely more comfortable when I sit there, especially when there is no one in the middle seat. Should I sue the airline because every so oftan I didn’t get the exit row? What about the time that I was given a boarding pass for seat 14F, and minutes before boarding there was a last minute equipment swap from a 737-800 to a 737-400 making 14F just another Y seat. Should I be suing for that because the flight was no where near as comfortable as what I had expected?



So very very true... :shock:

I don't think qantas actually does state on their website what the pitch is in economy. I went to the qantas site and searched for 'seat pitch'. results were for premium economy and business class. but nothing for economy itself.

if you have a look at flying with us, economy, all you see is the guy sitting with over two windows of space, reclining very comfortably, and with no one sitting beside him.

there is nothing to indicate what you are saying (that we should all know what the pitch is...)

as for the agent... remember that the agent is an agent for the airline... NOT for the passenger. one would expect an agent of the airline to know a little about their airline....

as for the equipment swap... it all depends. if you tell the airline that you are selecting an exit seat because of reason xyz, (for example because you are tall) and then there is a swap, then it is possible that the product purchased is no longer suitable for you and you may be entitled to a refund. nut if you don't tell them, then no, you have no right of recourse unless you paid extra for the seat in questions.

seats not being guaranteed etc - those words have a limited operation. they apply only to operational reasons around safety... for example weight and balance, not being able bodied to operate an emergency
exit.
 

harvyk

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if you have a look at flying with us, economy, all you see is the guy sitting with over two windows of space, reclining very comfortably, and with no one sitting beside him.

and if you click on the next link (for entertainment options) you see Y seats packed in tight. (infact it makes it look like there is even less seat pitch available than what there actually is). Besides, it's not false advertising as there do have Y seats which don't have anyone in front of them, and it's very possible to have a row of seats to yourself. Provided that they can offer what is shown then it's not a problem.


I don't think qantas actually does state on their website what the pitch is in economy. I went to the qantas site and searched for 'seat pitch'. results were for premium economy and business class. but nothing for economy itself.

<snip>

as for the equipment swap... it all depends. if you tell the airline that you are selecting an exit seat because of reason xyz, (for example because you are tall) and then there is a swap, then it is possible that the product purchased is no longer suitable for you and you may be entitled to a refund. nut if you don't tell them, then no, you have no right of recourse unless you paid extra for the seat in questions.

So did the guy turn around and say to QF "I can't fit into a Y seat, I need a refund or an upgrade"?

For all products regardless of if it's an airline ticket, a computer, a washing machine, it is upto the customer to do their own research, and make a decision based on that research. The only exception is if you have the company state that the product is fit for purpose requested when it is clearly not, in the case of an airline you'd probably be looking at being sold a seat on an aircraft which is unairworthy before you'd have real cause to claim the product was not fit for purpose.

Lets put this another way, if you where going to purchase a car, would you jump onto Ford's website tick a few boxes and expect to have the car delivered in 6 to 8 weeks, and then sue because you ended up with a manual and you didn't realise it meant you needed to change gears manually. Or would you do some research? Find out what others think of the car, read reviews, get an understanding of what you are buying.

So whilst QF may not have it's seat pitch advertised on it's website, there are tons of websites available which will advise you of things like seat pitch so you can make an informed decision.
 

simongr

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I don't think qantas actually does state on their website what the pitch is in economy. I went to the qantas site and searched for 'seat pitch'. results were for premium economy and business class. but nothing for economy itself.

Let me google that for you

Fourth link lists seat pitches - if your height is an issue you have a responsibility to check for yourself.
 

ozbeachbabe

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as for the agent... remember that the agent is an agent for the airline... NOT for the passenger. one would expect an agent of the airline to know a little about their airline....

Yes one would expect an agent of the airline to know better but the fact of the matter is that a good majority of agents don't. If the agent knew what they were doing they would've told the guy that the only way you can guarantee getting an exit row seat is to pay for it. It is not possible for an agent to reserve an exit row seat on QF international flights without payment for the $160.00 (eg Aust to USA). The guy in question could've been a bit more proactive and called the airline to check.

as for the equipment swap... it all depends. if you tell the airline that you are selecting an exit seat because of reason xyz, (for example because you are tall) and then there is a swap, then it is possible that the product purchased is no longer suitable for you and you may be entitled to a refund. nut if you don't tell them, then no, you have no right of recourse unless you paid extra for the seat.

seats not being guaranteed etc - those words have a limited operation. they apply only to operational reasons around safety... for example weight and balance, not being able bodied to operate an emergency exit.

If you paid for an exit row internationally & lied about being able bodied for whatever reason which resulted in you having to be reseated you will not receive a refund. Domestically as there is currently no charge for exit rows obviously there is no refund if you haven't paid for being in the exit in the first place.

You may tell the airline you want an exit because you're tall & you are allocated one however in the case of an aircraft swap the computer doesn't say "oh wait, this guy told us he wanted the exit so let's reassign him from for 35 to 43 so he still gets it" as the computer understandably cannot decipher who has rung up & spoken to the airline vs who may have selected an exit row online without calling the airline so you will get the scanario below.

Operational reasons are not limited to saftey - it may just be a simple case of an aircraft swap eg you might have 34 or 35 on the first aircraft but the replacement aircraft may be row 43, so more than likely anyone who was originally in rows 34 & 35 will still have the same seat allocation without those seats being in the exit. Similarly if you had pre-allocated row 43 when it was just a regular seat will end up with the same actual seat number which is now an exit row.
 

harvyk

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ozbeachbabe, what would happen if someone paid for an exit row seat and then due to aircraft changes the row is no longer an exit row or there are no longer even the same number of exit row seats available to accomodate all who have paid for one?

Would there be refunds would it be first checked in best dressed?
 

ozbeachbabe

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ozbeachbabe, what would happen if someone paid for an exit row seat and then due to aircraft changes the row is no longer an exit row or there are no longer even the same number of exit row seats available to accomodate all who have paid for one?

Would there be refunds would it be first checked in best dressed?

The QF website states below that you would be entitled to a refund. In the case of paying for an exit row then circumstances changed eg you broke your arm they will refund you if you give them 24 hours notice.

6. Exit Row Seats are non-refundable unless:
(a) Qantas changes your seat for operational, safety or security reasons (even after boarding the aircraft), and are unable to seat you in an Exit Row Seat, or
(b) there is a flight disruption causing you to be moved to another flight and Qantas is unable to seat you in an Exit Row Seat on your new flight.
(c) Qantas moves you to another flight not operated by Qantas


Qantas Seat Selection | Exit Row Seats | Check in Seat Selection
 

trooper

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I love the way someone always ascribes the current Y seat pitch(es) on offer as a conspiracy by the greedy airlines....

Of course.

It has nothing at all to do with the fact that the vast majority of pax make their choice of airline solely on price.

At least we haven't heard the call to legislate seat mimima in this thread... a demand that always has the unspoken corollary of "at the same price as the cheapest available now" :shock::rolleyes:

Me? I'm only 5' 8".. but I think 31" pitch sucks.. so I buy exit rows where necessary (say..SQ) and maintain status to get them elsewhere (NZ)... I think it's called putting ones money where ones mouth is.
 

straitman

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I love the way someone always ascribes the current Y seat pitch(es) on offer as a conspiracy by the greedy airlines....

Of course.

It has nothing at all to do with the fact that the vast majority of pax make their choice of airline solely on price.

At least we haven't heard the call to legislate seat mimima in this thread... a demand that always has the unspoken corollary of "at the same price as the cheapest available now" :shock::rolleyes:

Me? I'm only 5' 8".. but I think 31" pitch sucks.. so I buy exit rows where necessary (say..SQ) and maintain status to get them elsewhere (NZ)... I think it's called putting ones money where ones mouth is.
At last someone posting something sensible about seat pitch :!: :cool:
 

MEL_Traveller

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...

Besides, it's not false advertising as there do have Y seats which don't have anyone in front of them, and it's very possible to have a row of seats to yourself. Provided that they can offer what is shown then it's not a problem.




...

The only exception is if you have the company state that the product is fit for purpose requested when it is clearly not, in the case of an airline you'd probably be looking at being sold a seat on an aircraft which is unairworthy before you'd have real cause to claim the product was not fit for purpose.

no one was saying it was false advertising... but they do show pictures with people being relaxed and having plenty of room...




Let me google that for you

Fourth link lists seat pitches - if your height is an issue you have a responsibility to check for yourself.

whether it was on google or not is not my point... my point was that the qantas website doesn't tell you the pitch... if you enter a contract with the bank for your mortgage you don't expect to have to do to another independent website to tell you about something... all the details should be in the mortgage agreement...

...

Operational reasons are not limited to saftey - it may just be a simple case of an aircraft swap eg you might have 34 or 35 on the first aircraft but the replacement aircraft may be row 43, so more than likely anyone who was originally in rows 34 & 35 will still have the same seat allocation without those seats being in the exit. Similarly if you had pre-allocated row 43 when it was just a regular seat will end up with the same actual seat number which is now an exit row.

I agree that operation issues are not limited to safety... but there are issues within and outside an airlines control. maintenance, or an aircraft going tech because of lack of maintenance may well be within the airline's control. The 743s used to have heaps of problems... not my problem that an airline failed to plan its fleet sufficiently (incl knowing that delays in new aircraft such as the 787 are quite possible).

However... the main issue is I just cant see why everyone is so against this guy. If he is successful then tall people might get exits... for free... whats the problem?
 

Hvr

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However... the main issue is I just cant see why everyone is so against this guy. If he is successful then tall people might get exits... for free... whats the problem?

Define tall? Is it taller than 6'2" or what?

What happens if there are more tall people than exit row seats? Are these seats held until all people have checked in then the tallest people get them? What if they're disabled and tall?

Way too many variables for your suggestion to work. Especially the cost and status issues which you haven't addressed.

Also, this would probably be considered indirect discrimination in that women are generally shorter than men and they would by definition usually be excluded from these seats.

What if there aren't any tall people? Do the tallest people still get first choice? Do high heels count when measuring height?
 

JohnPhelan

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As for the infant... yes they pay 10% of the fare, but then parents are eligible for a bassinet for free. If a parent can get one of those (arguably making their flight more comfortable for free) why can't a tall person?

Because a tall person won't fit in a bassinet ??:p
 

MEL_Traveller

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Define tall? Is it taller than 6'2" or what?

What happens if there are more tall people than exit row seats? Are these seats held until all people have checked in then the tallest people get them? What if they're disabled and tall?

Way too many variables for your suggestion to work. Especially the cost and status issues which you haven't addressed.

Also, this would probably be considered indirect discrimination in that women are generally shorter than men and they would by definition usually be excluded from these seats.

What if there aren't any tall people? Do the tallest people still get first choice? Do high heels count when measuring height?

Not at all... the only complicating issue is the fact that airlines are now charging for exit rows.

In the good old days, unless you were plat on QF, you waited till you got to the airport and exit seats were assigned.

If you were obviously very tall then you got to the airport early and were given one if available.

Same thing applies to flights I have been taking around asia recently where those airlines do not sell exits. They have a list of extra leg room seats, I turn up and ask for one, they look and me and go 'ok, have this one here'.

There's nothing complicated except that exit row seats, which could never ever under no circumstances ever be pre-assigned (according to Qantas, on safety grounds) now all of a sudden can be pre-assigned if you are willing to pay $160.

Your arguments against this policy are already well and truly addressed by similar situations... such a parents requesting a bassinet... not all passengers will always get one... first come first served. And those same bassinet pax can take up a bulkhead room (away from a plat). So status issues with regard to special seats etc already addressed.
 

Robert K

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So if there were more 'tall' passenger than there are exit row seats, should the airline deny the passenger carriage?
 
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harvyk

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no one was saying it was false advertising... but they do show pictures with people being relaxed and having plenty of room...

and I have had many flights in Y feeling pretty relaxed with a row of 3 seats to myself. I can assure you it is possible to have loads of room in Y.


whether it was on google or not is not my point... my point was that the qantas website doesn't tell you the pitch... if you enter a contract with the bank for your mortgage you don't expect to have to do to another independent website to tell you about something... all the details should be in the mortgage agreement...


when I've entered into mortgages I have in the past gotten a lawyer involved to go over the agreement for me as well as did large amounts of research. I never blindly sign on the dotted line.
 
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