The 6:30am BNE-SYD is gone and I am not on it [No ESTA]

[JohnK]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Well in a war or a fight, if someone is down, the art of war tells you to press the advantage, not to let them get up again. Same goes for boxing (until the ref tells you to back off).

I was brought up from childhood with the mentality that those who are wrong deserve no right to tell others to refrain from telling them that they are wrong, no matter what shape or form that criticism, accusation or abuse takes. The idea, I believe, was meant to be that reinforcing to someone that they are wrong will shame or reshape their behaviour enough that they will strive much harder not to be wrong again, because they do not want to relive that shame (criticism, accusations, abuse) through being wrong.

What are you on about? I am confused. I am wrong in this situation (even though I am not wrong) so it is Ok for others to abuse me and criticise me because I am wrong. Sorry but that makes no sense.

And being attacked and criticised in a place outside of AFF where I cannot defend myself is even lower than what is happening on AFF.

Human beings know better but you know what some of these hum.... ah forget it.... you know what I was going to say but it's just not worth it.

Thanks to some lovely suggestions in this thread. The rest of it is just waffle.

Oh and to those who have sent me sms and PM's discussing the situation you are truly friends. Thank you.

 

[marki]

Esta rookie mistake not having it up to date
Remember when QANTAS let Molly on and when he got there..... Back he came.... No ESTA!

Oh really so being more "even" gets you a BP wow!

 

[love_the_life]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Well in a war or a fight, if someone is down, the art of war tells you to press the advantage, not to let them get up again. Same goes for boxing (until the ref tells you to back off).

I was brought up from childhood with the mentality that those who are wrong deserve no right to tell others to refrain from telling them that they are wrong, no matter what shape or form that criticism, accusation or abuse takes. The idea, I believe, was meant to be that reinforcing to someone that they are wrong will shame or reshape their behaviour enough that they will strive much harder not to be wrong again, because they do not want to relive that shame (criticism, accusations, abuse) through being wrong.

Don't agree with your view of life Anat01 and your idea is that by criticising, accusing or abusing a wrong doer they will learn to do better next time. Not interested in a debate on this, just pointing out that I do not share your premise.

 

[ozjuice]

Damn...sorry to hear it all went bad for you.

 

[anat0l]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

What are you on about? I am confused. I am wrong in this situation (even though I am not wrong) so it is Ok for others to abuse me and criticise me because I am wrong. Sorry but that makes no sense.

And being attacked and criticised in a place I cannot defend myself is even lower than what is happening on AFF.

Human beings know better but you know what some of these hum.... ah forget it.... you know what I was going to say but it's just not worth it.

Thanks to some lovely suggestions in this thread. The rest of it is just waffle....

I was responding to where you thought this stupid idea of criticising someone who is down came from. I'm saying it exists, both in times of war, and even outside of war - I was brought up on it.

I only learned about people making mistakes and not having the world come down on them is possible from going to school. I didn't learn it at home.


Also I keep getting confused whether you are admitting or denying any shred of responsibility in this misfortune.

 

[anat0l]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Don't agree with your view of life Anat01 and your idea is that by criticising, accusing or abusing a wrong doer they will learn to do better next time. Not interested in a debate on this, just pointing out that I do not share your premise.

It's not mine. I just said I was brought up on it.

 

[RooFlyer]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

<snip>
My stance on what happened this morning has changed considerably since it happened. And at the end of the day some of the personal attacks have been unbelievable.

Sorry not you. A post further up. The one I quoted and you responded. Probably tongue in cheek but considering all the personal attacks today I am a little jumpy.
Lose all respect for people who lay into someone when they are down. This isn't the first time either. Happens on other threads to other people as well. AFF is supposed to be community where we help each other.

We all make mistakes. I have no respect for people who live and breath I told you so and kicking someone when they are down.

<snip>
Lesson learnt today. Virgin do not handle difficult situations. Virgin do not need my business.
I will continue to fly Virgin the bare minimum sectors required for Gold status. I cannot earn status on cheap SQ airfares but I can earn it on Virgin and use the lounge access and luggage allowance on SQ.
For me lesson learnt. It won't happen again. Hope someone else learns something from this thread. And to the detractors? I have nothing nice to say to you and you will be duly ignored.

JohnK, you are obviously very upset about what happened this morning, and in spite of my believing (and saying) that this was entirely your own doing, (failing to get an ESTA in time) I do feel sorry for you.

But I have gone through the entire thread again and I'm blowed if I can see all these 'personal attacks' and 'kicking' you while you are down (unless they have been deleted). AFF has never been a perpetual group hug while I've been around; if you make contentious criticisms of an airline you might expect some criticisms back. All a number of us are saying is that your strident criticisms (and name calling) of Virgin are mis-placed and the blame lies at your feet, which I think you have conceded. When our travel plans go astray its fairly normal to want the airline to 'go the extra mile' to help us, even if it is our own fault, and when they don't there are plenty here who then turn around and criticise the airline. But the airline is not obliged to go out of their way to help when you try to check in without an ESTA. Full stop.

Do you know what the process is for re-opening a flight to allow some-one to check in after its closed? Its not just a matter of the people at the gate simply allowing you though. When I was next to the gate desk after a flight was closed and some-one rushed up wanting to board a minute later, (Qantas, as it happens) there were a series of radio calls from the desk to (I think) the person on the air bridge, or maybe the person who looks after the weight/manifest thing and is last off the plane before the doors close. He was refused because they had gone past some point which couldn't be undone; he wasn't refused because the airline staff just felt spiteful or had a 'LCC' mentality. Should Virgin have gone through all this (to see if you could actually be accepted on board) on the chance that if they checked you in that you now had, as you would have been saying, an ESTA? I'm trying to make the point that what you regarded as the lack of a simple helpful thing wouldn't have been simple at all.

As others have said, we don't know how the airline systems actually work in this regard. I suspect that the consequences for an airline of allowing someone to fly to the USA without an ESTA are pretty severe for the airline, so it wouldn't surprise me if the computer simply wouldn't allow you to be checked you in for any flight linked to the USA bound one without you being cleared for the USA one. And if you didn't take the first flight (ie took another VA or QF one) I suspect the entire ticket would have been cancelled.

Given that it was a super cheap fare (mistake or not) it doesn't surprise me in the least that they wanted a lot of $$ to move you to another flight. Surely we here know that the number of 'sale/cheap' seats on any flight is limited, and when they are gone, you have to pay the price of the seats available? And if it was a mistake fare, then there certainly would not be any more available!

 

[JohnK]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Also I keep getting confused whether you are admitting or denying any shred of responsibility in this misfortune.

I was wrong for not having an ESTA application in place when I went to check in for a domestic flight from BNE-SYD. That is my fault. Totally my fault and no one else fault although I can push some blame towards Orbitz for not mentioning ESTA on the email they sent me 3 days ago and to Virgin for hiding ESTA down on page 3 of an email they sent me the other day.

So yes my fault for not having ESTA in place.

But my ESTA was approved and in place at 6:10am for a 9:50am flight SYD-LAX which is perfectly fine. This is fine by USA government and border protection. Virgin refused to take me to SYD where I would have been fine to board the international flight. Why did they refuse me boarding? Their systems cannot handle it? Not my fault. Their staff could not think outside the square? Not my fault.

What if I had a SYD-LAX-BNE open jaw this morning with a separate VA ticket BNE-SYD on the same flight? I would have been allowed on domestic and I would have had to get ESTA done for international flight?

What if I had a SYD-LAX-BNE open jaw this morning with a separate QF/JQ/TT ticket BNE-SYD this morning? I would have been allowed on domestic and I would have had to get ESTA done for international flight at SYD T1?

All acceptable solutions to my "rookie" mistake this morning. But no Virgin had to go one better and actually ruin my weekend with their inability to help.

And as serfty posted the stupid SYD-LAX flight left late anyway.

So regardless of who thinks I am wrong or not Virgin staff could have done more this morning. This I have no doubt. And I did say I have learnt my lesson. Don't rely on Virgin to assist in difficult times because they are incapable of assisting.

Are my expectations too high? Sorry. I don't think my expectations are high and regardless of what you or anyone thinks I do not need to change my mind. I am not asking for a lot. I am not expecting a lot. All I did was not have an ESTA in place which was not the end of the world.

 

[love_the_life]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

It's not mine. I just said I was brought up on it.

My apologies then as it sounded from your post that you were brought up with this view and agreed with it. If it is not your view I am sorry.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Oh but you are wrong. Virgin are to blame. Waited too long in international check-in queue while someone was rearranging luggage and then would not check me into domestic flight. I don't care what their system does or does not do. They failed me this morning and yes it was my fault to start with but Virgin could have tried to help instead of telling me "Can't do this" or "Can't do that". And we have read that Qantas would have handled the situation differently.

no John, you are to blame but not double checking you needed an ESTA. that's not VA's or anyone else's responsibility. As for other pax wasting time you can't do much about that either. they didn't fail you, you failed yourself but not checking what was required before you left.
And what could they have done? you missed your original flight and depending on your fare rules there may not have been many options. we've read the *may* have done it differently. You might have ended up in the same boat too.

Virgin a clueless when it comes to customer care. I don't need you or anyone else to tell me otherwise. My experiences are my experiences and they differ from yours.

They may be in many aspects, but today you are angry because you made a mistake and in your eyes they didn't bend or break the rules to fix it up.

And no it is not right to knock someone when they are down. Never. Not on AFF not anywhere. Not sure where that stupid mentality comes from it's wrong. But it has been noted for future reference.

I'm not knocking you John, but your first post was a rant - you were wanting to blame everything/one but yourself. had you said at the start i stuffed up here it's my fault there would have been different responses.

I have chalked it up to experience but there is no harm debating the matter like human beings. Is it?

No there isn't but also expect criticism given your posts. We've all made stuff ups before. Acknowledging them and taking responsibility are what get you onto the high ground.

And I would be stupid if I did not pursue the matter with Virgin customer care. What have I got to lose? May get another flight or some SCs and points out of it if I put my case forward. That's why this thread has been good because there have been some really good suggestions.

I doubt you will get far but feel free to try. I've had them squarely in the wrong before and hardly got a thing back..

 

[NZflygirl]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Am I the only lazy buggar (I mean 'environmentally friendly' person) that screenshots things like ESTA?
The bigger my bag gets to carry junk the more time it takes me to find anything! I'm electronic all the way!

Although sticking points would be - device not charged, or no internet at stopover port (or having to run around to find Internet in large airport) to bring apps and email up!

Anyway, my visa stuff up story was flying AKL to Vietnam many years ago. Had done a bunch of travelling via travel agent bookings and got to SIN to board flight but denied as no visa for Vietnam! I know the travel agent hadn't told me as I'd never needed visas before to other destinations (apart from the US) and it would have sent off alarm bells - you know, like the first time you hear of something that departs from your usual or previous experience.

i had a good friend in SIN I stayed with who was travelled who helped calm me down, we went to bin tan? and he tried to get me to eat cows tongue -Eegh!! We talked about staying in SIN and trying for a visa but ultimately settled on buying a cheap ticket to Cambodia with $1 US to buy a visa on entry. In hindsight It was a much better destination for my one week of leave and it's still one of my all time favourite trips riding on the back of motorbikes against the majority of traffic flow thinking "my parents would shoot me themselves if they knew what I was up to!" Haha.

My story is a bit different in that the outcome was a positive one (something I'm not sure will eventuate from your circumstances). But I certainly sympathise with that feeling of shock, stomach sinking and a bit of despair setting in when you realise you are going to miss your flight! I was FUMING for the next 24hrs. Called the travel agent and they gave me $200 in travel credit " whoopie!" They claimed the fine print covered it. But I am also very grateful my well travelled friend was there to cheer me up and help problem solve things over the next 24 hrs where I ended up with a very memorable trip! Funnily enough I hadn't booked hotels or anything etc (can't recall why - unorganised perhaps) but it's true you sometimes get that niggly feeling things aren't quite going to plan.

Tomorrow is another day, another sc to chase

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

I was wrong for not having an ESTA application in place when I went to check in for a domestic flight from BNE-SYD. That is my fault. Totally my fault and no one else fault although I can push some blame towards Orbitz for not mentioning ESTA on the email they sent me 3 days ago and to Virgin for hiding ESTA down on page 3 of an email they sent me the other day.

So yes my fault for not having ESTA in place.

But my ESTA was approved and in place at 6:10am for a 9:50am flight SYD-LAX which is perfectly fine. This is fine by USA government and border protection. Virgin refused to take me to SYD where I would have been fine to board the international flight. Why did they refuse me boarding? Their systems cannot handle it? Not my fault. Their staff could not think outside the square? Not my fault.

What if I had a SYD-LAX-BNE open jaw this morning with a separate VA ticket BNE-SYD on the same flight? I would have been allowed on domestic and I would have had to get ESTA done for international flight?

What if I had a SYD-LAX-BNE open jaw this morning with a separate QF/JQ/TT ticket BNE-SYD this morning? I would have been allowed on domestic and I would have had to get ESTA done for international flight at SYD T1?

All acceptable solutions to my "rookie" mistake this morning. But no Virgin had to go one better and actually ruin my weekend with their inability to help.

And as serfty posted the stupid SYD-LAX flight left late anyway.

So regardless of who thinks I am wrong or not Virgin staff could have done more this morning. This I have no doubt. And I did say I have learnt my lesson. Don't rely on Virgin to assist in difficult times because they are incapable of assisting.

Are my expectations too high? Sorry. I don't think my expectations are high and regardless of what you or anyone thinks I do not need to change my mind. I am not asking for a lot. I am not expecting a lot. All I did was not have an ESTA in place which was not the end of the world.

John - but you didn't have any of those other scenarios in place.

You didn't have a domestic flight itinerary this morning. you had an international one. You check-in only once in BNE for the entire journey, BNE-SYD-LAX. As such, you are required to show the correct documentation at the time of check-in. VA makes this clear on their site.

Stating you had only a domestic sector is not explaining the full facts. According to VA at BNE this morning, your ESTA had to be in place before the first leg of your journey, or you can't be checked in.

I too disagree that anyone has personally 'attacked' you or kicked you while you are down. That someone doesn't share your opinion doesn't amount to an attack. I hope you don't feel that way.

If you saw the couple in front taking 10-12 minutes to repack your bag, why didn't you ask either them, or the VA agent if they could move aside for a minute to check you in?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

the abrupt halt at the airport was the first time Virgin Met the customer as contact is between Agent and customer?

No. The contract is between the passenger and the airline. Orbitz is an agent of the airline.

 

[Dr Ralph]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Virgin are not to blame AT ALL. You need to get over your mistakes, stop claiming that you are a victim (both here and at the hands of Virgin) and move on. The carry on engaged by the OP is far beyond a joke. It's becoming shameful.

 

[Dr Ralph]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

the abrupt halt at the airport was the first time Virgin Met the customer as contact is between Agent and customer?
..

By definition an agent is not a party to a contract. Rather they are a conduit to connect the other parties.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Can VA (or any airline) access this kind of information? Let alone in advance?

If they can deny him boarding it means they have access to the information on some level.
Airline could auto-check in every pax 24 hours prior (I mean WTF does check in do anyway? it's outdated and we live in an electronic age now)

I thought this is normally why you need to show ESTA evidence at check-in. It's not that the airlines know you have an ESTA or not, it is simply that they need to acknowledge you have one (usually by sighting it, but those airlines who want to run the risk and just ask and take your word for it can do so).

In my bajillion trips to USA I've never needed to prove ESTA. Proof of accommodation a few times but never ESTA.

So what should they have quoted him, or how should they have handled it?

I have zero sympathy for airlines when they are forced to stump up cash, get bad press etc in these types of situations. Every day they carry 10000000's of pax and constantly run into the same old problems over and over again.

IMO the rep should have ushered JohnK to the side (as a status pax) and whipped out an ipad that links into the VA database of "what to do if...." which should have a procedure similar to this:

What to do if pax does not hold approved ESTA for travel to United States of America:

- Request pax to immediately request ESTA online.
- Advise pax if ESTA approved before XX time, they can go on original flight
- If pax has encountered ESTA problems previously, click here for secondary process
- Move pax to later flight that day if under 90% load (free for Gold/Plat on equiv partners - all others include a flight transfer fee)
- If ESTA not approved and no flight options avail, offer pax move flights for flat fee if booked in Y/PE. If J/F, rebook on another carrier in non-earning class.
- If 'No' to all, offer pax refund as VA credit

Did this result in happy pax? Yes - No

If No, enter comments from pax - will be sent directly to VA "we fix stuff department"

--

However if I were running the innovation department at VA I would also look at:

- How we can streamline ESTA process on behalf of premium/status pax. Can we submit on behalf of pax and pickup the tab ourselves? (Hello new revenue stream for the airline + perhaps provide at no cost as a value add concierge type service to high status members)

- Why the **** we are not already pulling this information from internal and third parties prior to the flight day (big data FAIL)

- Did we make all reasonable attempts to notify the pax of VISA issues prior?

- How much is this pax worth to VA and partners as a whole, what is their Projected Lifetime Value (PLV) and where in the timeline we think this pax currently is (a metric many airlines use to determine the potential future financial value of this person). In some cases, if the score is high (which is independent of FF status) it may be worth simply shifting them to another flight and writing down the bogus $1000 fare class changes to get the pax to the destination.

- Using data on hand (again, all automated), what is the pax magic upgrade number and can we turn this into a revenue opportunity to get the pax to pay more for premium cabin.

I could come up with more reasons but I'm currently at dinner ;-)

 

[PLANT]

Look it really comes down to Johnk not getting his IN N OUT burger at Lax I suppose I'd be upset too!

 

[RooFlyer]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

If they can deny him boarding it means they have access to the information on some level.
Airline could auto-check in every pax 24 hours prior (I mean WTF does check in do anyway? it's outdated and we live in an electronic age now)
<snip for space>

Given the state of the VA web site, I doubt that the technology fixes you mention would be possible at VA. I would be shocked, shocked I say, that VA would understand what a 'we fix stuff' department would be used for.

Given JohnK's experience with slow queues (not enough staff about), I doubt that having someone with the time to take him aside to individually workshop his problem would be an option for the airline. What about some personalised hand-holding for all the other people with check-in issues ... over weight luggage or carry-on; too many pieces etc. ?

If we wonder why airlines don't feel the need to 'fix' situations like this, read what JohnK's said up-thread. In spite of his experience, he is still going to use Virgin enough to retain Gold status. I had a really bad customer service issue with American some years back, and I swore that I'd never use them again. I still do, of course.

 

[PLANT]

Is there a list on here of visa requirements for each country? Think it's time we had a info thread to refer to for all countries to help all in future..... I know Google but would be a neat AFF feature to have?

 

[farstar]

Johnk has already said he made a mistake, time to move on and say "Mia culpa", getting an ESTA on the day of travel should never happen as you should check visa requirements when you book, which includes checking you have a valid ESTA for USA travel. If you make a mistake just say "Mia culpa" take the cost and move on.