Some Accounts suspended for "potentially" dodgy points transfers

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I think VA should do away with family pooling and make people earn the status by actually being a frequent flyer, not just a patriarch. Seems like a giant (albeit legitimate) loophole to me. But that's just my opinion.
 
Seems like a giant (albeit legitimate) loophole to me.
Family pooling isn't really a loophole as its working exactly as intended. A loophole is usually an unintended consequence of ambiguity in the rules allowing legitimate evasion/avoidance.
 
I think VA should do away with family pooling and make people earn the status by actually being a frequent flyer, not just a patriarch. Seems like a giant (albeit legitimate) loophole to me. But that's just my opinion.

The only reason I fly exclusively Virgin is because of family pooling which gives me the ability to maintain status and the benefits afforded when we go away. Remove that and every flight I would take from that point on would be then between Qantas and Virgin.
 
The only reason I fly exclusively Virgin is because of family pooling which gives me the ability to maintain status and the benefits afforded when we go away. Remove that and every flight I would take from that point on would be then between Qantas and Virgin.

Hear hear, Bean. My thoughts exactly. The loyalty is being also tested with the new fare structure too as we tend to fly cheapest fare class available.

WRT dodgy transfers, I'm wondering how one would prove that so-and-so is or isn't my cousin/in-law/same sex partner/hetero life partner (or whatever connection is claimed)? Serious question. Family structures are increasingly complex these days. What paperwork could VA ask for when their system flags dodgy activity?
 
The only reason I fly exclusively Virgin is because of family pooling which gives me the ability to maintain status and the benefits afforded when we go away. Remove that and every flight I would take from that point on would be then between Qantas and Virgin.

I am in the same boat. Leave family pooling alone
 
I've been following developments with interest, but not because I've done anything wrong. I don't use VA and my QF account is legitimate.

However, I would like to say that while those who haven't done anything wrong shouldn't feel worried (as has been said over and over), not that I know individual circumstances but I'm lead to believe some who were targeted also weren't doing anything wrong. If this is the case, it's not so much about not worrying as you'll get your accounts back but the fact that they've essentially said you're guilty until proven innocent, caused emotional distress AND if a stat dec is required they expect you to stop what you are doing to get one done as if your time isn't valuable. So if you're "audited" for innocent transfers I'd be billing them for your time, as that seems fair.
 
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WRT dodgy transfers, I'm wondering how one would prove that so-and-so is or isn't my cousin/in-law/same sex partner/hetero life partner (or whatever connection is claimed)? Serious question. Family structures are increasingly complex these days. What paperwork could VA ask for when their system flags dodgy activity?

I've been following developments with interest, but not because I've done anything wrong. I don't use VA and my QF account is legitimate.

However, I would like to say that while those who haven't done anything wrong shouldn't feel worried (as has been said over and over), not that I know individual circumstances but I'm lead to believe some who were targeted also weren't doing anything wrong. If this is the case, it's not so much about not worrying as you'll get your accounts back but the fact that they've essentially said you're guilty until proven innocent, caused emotional distress AND if a stat dec is required they expect you to stop what you are doing to get one done as if your time isn't valuable. So if you're "audited" for innocent transfers I'd be billing them for your time, as that seems fair.

Here's the thing about this process - the "guilty until proven innocent" thing. I was trying to explain this issue to Mum the other day and why some people, even if they earnestly haven't done anything wrong, are annoyed. I used the analogy (possibly incorrect) that it's a bit like a murder happening and they knew it was someone in a block of residences. So the solution is to imprison everyone in the block, then interrogate each of them until they work out who is innocent and who is not. But until they are convinced that you didn't do anything wrong, you stay in jail. Even if you are released without charge, fact of the matter was, you were in jail and unable to do a thing.

Notwithstanding someone coming up with an adequate legal argument (of which has been alluded to on this thread, but not elaborated), given this is VA's domain, they seem free to do whatever they want in handling this. Thus, they can ask for stat decs. That doesn't mean they have to take your word for it, and can still close your account. Of course, one other point of view is that if they cannot be absolutely certain, then they should give one the benefit of the doubt. Some people may just lose their accounts in "breakage", i.e. they will not follow the procedure and the time limits will expire, thus their accounts get cancelled (similar to being found guilty in absentia).

Asking for a stat dec is rather interesting in that, at least the way I understand it, you don't just flimsily ask one to fill it out. It's a serious, legal instrument; not just some cavalier declaration.

If someone really wanted to push this into the legal domain, it'd be interesting to see if VA would actually invest the time to pursue this in court (most airlines don't have the time or resources to dedicate to these). If they do go to court, I suppose they would be using those stat decs against some people.

I don't think VA would be too concerned about brand damage or people leaving. They know they have success with VFF because they have awards to back it. If people left VFF in light of these kinds of stories, where would they go? Qantas? Many of them left Qantas in retaliation in the first place, along with its weaknesses (which continue to persist) - why would or should they go back? If you were closed by VA, how much noise would you make to warn others?

Most people are not as points rich or using the system to its fullest potential - including many elite members - so they wouldn't even be close to skirting an audit. From their point of view by only getting the surface context (which has not even entered mainstream media yet, not even AusBT), most of those members would probably believe "if you haven't done anything wrong, you'll be OK" and the rest get what they deserve. That is, overall, no sympathy.
 
I think we are confusing family pooling and family transfer here. Family pooling requires that the family lives at the same address, family transfer doesn't

Eligible Family Member means any person a Member can demonstrate is related to that Member in any of the ways described as follows: husband/wife/domestic partner/de facto, parent/child, brother/sister, grandparent/grandchild, son/daughter-in-law, brother/sister-in-law, father/mother-in-law, uncle/aunt, nephew/niece, first cousin, or any foster, step or adopted relationship in any of these categories..
 
On this thread, I am not seeing any AFF members coming forward saying they have been 'suspended' recently. So, I guess there must be some isolated cases in the OPs circle of friends. I also guess they are running around saying theyv'e done nothing wrong. Are there any recent cases of AFF members having their accounts suspended?
 
On this thread, I am not seeing any AFF members coming forward saying they have been 'suspended' recently. So, I guess there must be some isolated cases in the OPs circle of friends. I also guess they are running around saying theyv'e done nothing wrong. Are there any recent cases of AFF members having their accounts suspended?
There are several 'closed' online groups I am aware of. Some members of those have reported having their account suspended. Some are or have been active members of AFF.
 
Are there any recent cases of AFF members having their accounts suspended?

There are several 'closed' online groups I am aware of. Some members of those have reported having their account suspended. Some are or have been active members of AFF.
You will see from serfty's answer that the answer to your question is yes.
 
A contractual discretion has to be exercised reasonably in accordance with principles of procedural fairness and cannot be used in an arbitrary or capricious manner. I hope the affected innocent parties fight back hard and reclaim their points.
 
On this thread, I am not seeing any AFF members coming forward saying they have been 'suspended' recently. So, I guess there must be some isolated cases in the OPs circle of friends. I also guess they are running around saying theyv'e done nothing wrong. Are there any recent cases of AFF members having their accounts suspended?

I'm an admin on a small closed Facebook group where a few of our members who would be known here on AFF have accounts affected by this.

The OP is a member of this group.
 
Copy of drivers licence showing address??

As Burmans said, there's a difference between family pooling, which would be proven by a drivers licence, and family transfers, which is what I think is being discussed here. I say think because there hasn't been examples provided. Just that VA has acted and it appears that legal threats have reversed their actions. Anyone going to elaborate as to what brought on VA's action?
 
You will see from serfty's answer that the answer to your question is yes.

Can one of these affected members perhaps share their experience? Seems like much is being said here without those invaluable real, firsthand experiences!
 
Can one of these affected members perhaps share their experience? Seems like much is being said here without those invaluable real, firsthand experiences!

As this is a Google search public Internet forum that may not happen from those directly affected but I know the following :
Email from VFF saying that account's suspended refers to a section of T&Cs. Follow up email gives the member 14 days to supply a Stat dec confirming relationships of family members who have interacted with their particular account.
All of the family members accounts are similarly suspended as well during this process and VFF status is Red if a flight is taken.
 
As Burmans said, there's a difference between family pooling, which would be proven by a drivers licence, and family transfers, which is what I think is being discussed here. I say think because there hasn't been examples provided. Just that VA has acted and it appears that legal threats have reversed their actions. Anyone going to elaborate as to what brought on VA's action?

It's both AFAIK
 
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Have some of the suspended members of Velocity transferred points that look like a sale? I still live happily with my Red status and yesterday I booked several rides to Sydney in business class because I could. On those dates Qantas had nothing so I went click and click on Velocity. It would be distressing to have an account suspended but a statutory declaration would fix it if no rules have been broken.
 
We will never know, but it would be interesting to find out what the ratio of 'guilty' to 'innocent' people that have been called upon to provide a statutory declaration. I assume VFF have looked pretty hard at the accounts before suspending them. Getting a statutory declaration signed has been a bit of a pain when you need to get a refund from QF to another credit card (previous one is closed etc).

I would also assume that most of the 'guilty' will be 'less than truthful' on the statutory declaration so what further action will VFF take if they still have suspicions of fraudulent activity? I suspect none if those members stop any further transfers (of any sort).
 
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