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QFF programme changes - AGAIN! Can't be good news?

Discussion in 'Qantas Frequent Flyer Program' started by Warks, Nov 24, 2004.

  1. Warks

    Warks Established Member

    Oct 9, 2003
    2,111
    808
    Sydney
    Not sure I like the sound of this: "you'll need fewer points for our most frequently redeemed Award flights" sounds okay but "in most other cases the number of points required for an Award flight will increase" doesn't!

    Please post any further info if you know anything more
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  2. essjay66

    essjay66 Newbie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4
    0
    Sydney
    Its a shocker. Mind you, i expect its like all the changes they continue to make - benefits some, disadvantages others.

    I haven't had time to go into it in too much depth - but the key points I can see are:

    GOOD: (these are effective immediately)

    1. You can now transfer points on the web site between eligible family members. Page is already available. Login to your account then follow the links on the page. Read the terms and conditions on it though. Min 5,000, max 100,000 and once every 12 months if I'm reading it right!

    2. There is also a new link for you to "top uo points" via charging your credit card. Again - read the rules. Can't exceed 15% of the required end balance, 500 point blocks of purchase, once every 12 months etc!


    BAD: (effective May 25)

    From a very quick spreadsheet analysis this is not looking at all good. But as I said, depends where you're flying.

    In summary, they're changing the whole 5 zone return miles concept to 10 ONE WAY zones. But check out the points tables - CAREFULLY.

    You'd be a thousand points better off on an DiscEcon>Bus seat upgrade if you're doing Sydney Melbourne everyday - thats cool.

    If you're trying to get from the eastern seaboard to Auckland or Perth the one way miles on these (1341mi and 2041mi respectively) will put them in one way zone 3 which is 16,000 so thats the same.

    However - check out ALL of the points required for redemption of full flight rewards (which I do occasionally for Syd>Per usually Bus Class). Zone 1 econ is better, but at a glance the rest is worse - bordering on horrific:

    Syd - Mel Return (936mi)
    ECON was 1xZone-1 = 20,000, will be 2xZone-1 = 16,000
    BUS was 1xZ1 30,000, will be 2xZ1=32,000

    Syd - Perth Return (4082mi) [weep]
    ECON was 1xZ2 = 30,000, will be 2xZ3 = 36,000
    BUS was 1xZ2 = 45,000 will be 2xZ3 = 72,000

    Syd - Auckland of course is some 700 miles less each way but fits beautifully into the lower end of the same zones as Perth.

    Tell me I've got this completely wrong !

    If not - I expect it's going to cause a huge cafuffle.

    In times when inflight service is quietly, slowly whittling away, and I'm sure those seat rows are inching closer together they really need to do all they can to keep the loyalty of the flying public, particularly the frequent ones.

    Sorry this is brief - I'm a bit short on time today. I await eagerly what comes of all this.

    If you haven't got the mail yet - you'll find the changes on the website under "new program features" (theres a good word) after clicking on the top FF menu.

    Safe Travels,

    Simon
     


  3. Craigjodie

    Craigjodie Newbie

    Nov 24, 2004
    6
    0
    How many miles is the following. I want to work out the effect the changes will have on it.

    Mel-Lax
    Mel NYK

    Thanks
     
  4. donjsimons

    donjsimons Junior Member

    Sep 26, 2002
    25
    0
    Return Brisbane / Tokyo was 50000 is now 60000.
    My points have been devalued by 20%.
    So much for loyalty.
    Thanks a lot Qantas.
    It is very hard not to be cynical about banks and airlines when the banks went from one point per dollar to .5 of a point and now Qantas lift their requirment.
    So last year I had to spend A$ 50,000 to get a return flight to Tokyo, then the banks moved the goalposts so I had to spend A$100,000.
    Now with Qantas moving the posts at the other end of the field I will have to spend A$ 120,000.
    Please correct me if I am wrong.
     
  5. serfty

    Moderator

    Nov 16, 2004
    36,833
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    MEL-LAX 7,923
    MEL-NYK 10,400 (approx.)
     


  6. Craigjodie

    Craigjodie Newbie

    Nov 24, 2004
    6
    0
    Thanks for that.

    it looks like the pionts required business/first class have gone up by close to 40%
     
  7. alien

    alien Member

    Nov 6, 2002
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    Sydney
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    I would suggest that all QFF members send an email to QANTAS stating your disatisfation rather than just on the forums. Its probably the only way QANTAS will know thats its current members are un happy. Maybe a representative from Frequent Flyer can put forward a case for members????

    I'm not happy about the news even though i'm not a member but have been considering it for sometime. Not sure at this stage if I will become a member now or look elsewhere.
     
  8. vaccav

    vaccav Junior Member

    Sep 26, 2004
    45
    0
    Qantas shafts its most loyal customers

    The article headline in the SMH ought to be "Qantas shafts most loyal passengers". My brief commentary on my first review of the minutei of the changes is as follows:

    - Airlines (as always) increase the level of miles required. The airlines have a commercial objective in doing this.

    - Qantas' changes represent, in many cases, a phenomenal increase in the 'cost' to most passengers. However, the bitter pill is sweetened by the small change to the SYD-MEL route from 20,000 down to 16,000.

    - The biggest impacts come at the top end of the scale for the most loyal passengers. The 'cost' of a SYD-EUROPE has increased as follows:
    Economy was 110,000; now 128,000
    Business was 220,000; now 256,000
    First was 275,000; now 384,000
    That's a 40% increase in the last category. Or to put it another way, they've wiped 40% off the value of points for the most loyal passengers who use their points in this manner. If you have a large balance the this has an enormous impact. As an indication of scale, those with 440,000 points or more have a $ loss of >$8,000 from a total points value of (say) $20,000. Ouch. Maths available on demand.

    - However, at least they're not making it retrospective in the unethical manner that Altitude recently did.

    - Of course, all this is exacerbated by the recent changes by the banks that make the earning of points harder. I assume someone from smh can put together an interesting article that shows that the average gold and platinum member has had their total benefit cut in half as a result of the banks and qantas combined.

    - The phase-out of upgrade credits is a real loss but (as I understand it) this is a benefit that many other airline loyalty programs do not currently give.

    - The solutions to all this, of course, lie in the competition:

    1. Virgin Upper Class gets here in December - good for the international travellers but no good to the domestic ones. I understand that the upperclass service is (like SIA) far superior to QF.

    2. SIA, again for the international travellers is a much greater benefit. Without having checked the data, I recall that the cost of an awards flight to Europe with SIA is around 80,000 - 90,000 (rather than 128,000 for QF). To put it another way, the SIA program grants >150% of the benefits that QF does.

    I am not aware of a great solution for domestic travellers.

    Anyway, back to work .. .. ..


    Vaccav

    PS I can be reached at vaccav74@hotmail.com.
     
  9. essjay66

    essjay66 Newbie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4
    0
    Sydney
    The best way I've found to do these is to use the "points calculator" from the Frequent Flyer tab on the qantas website. Choose the "how many points do I earn for my travel" button and work it out from there. Presently, as its 1 mile a point the number of base points is the mileage qantas treats it as. Failing that, use the "route maps" applet under the main Flight Info tab. Click the origin, then the destination and a box pops up with the distance in kilometres (divide by 1.6? for miles) and 5 options to do with that route. All very clever !


    Simon



     
  10. QF WP

    Moderator

    Jun 20, 2002
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    Interestingly, I found out about the changes from my best friend in SIN who alerted me to it early this morning by SMS.

    I haven't had a chance to digest all the changes and won't until my Friday PM flight BNE/MEL when I will stop for the first time-out I'll have had in the past coupleof weeks. Have printed out all the changes and will be looking at the combination of my points & UC's as well as my wife's to try and work out the best solution for us.

    Also, a very healthy discussion has already taken place on Flyertalk - 7 pages long in one day (unheard of previously)...
     
  11. Mr Smith

    Mr Smith Newbie

    Nov 25, 2004
    4
    0
    they just lost a 20 year loyal customer in me, i've taken a fully cash paid ticket into the office for refund, i was looking forward to booking a europe journey which is now not possible thanks to the new level of points needed.

    talk about shafting the people who are loyal to you most! :evil:

    now i'll fly Asiana or Austrian/Lauda and use KrisFLyer.
     
  12. strewth

    strewth Newbie

    Nov 25, 2004
    1
    0
    Assisted award bookings

    Another unfair practice is the service fee of 2500 points for assisted award bookings. I live in Paris and it's impossible to book an award booking online: Paris simply doesn't appear in pulldown menu. Same for Frankfurt, eventhough there is a Frankfurt-Sydney Qantas flight.

    It's tough enough to try to stick to Qantas from overseas, these latest changes are yet another slap in the face for overseas members.

    I'm more sad than angry, but SIA is looking very attractive indeed.
     
  13. lemonski

    lemonski Newbie

    Nov 25, 2004
    1
    0
    I'm pretty hacked off at these changes. To me there is something more than it just being unfair, it should almost be illegal - you accumulate points that have a certain redemption value and the airline can devalue them as it sees fit - yet they have still had the benefit of your ticket purchases and customer loyalty. It's almost like a "bait and switch" operation.

    Also, is there not an accounting problem with an airline revaluing points like this? Thinking back to the Ansett Frequent Flyer fiasco, wouldn't FF points be listed as a liability on Qantas' books? If you change the reward targets for points to make them more difficult to obtain, surely you are reducing your liability without any cash input. Wouldn't there be some provision in the tax or company laws against doing this? You're essentially doing an indirect transfer of funds from the consumer to the Qantas shareholder.
     
  14. bennettd1

    bennettd1 Newbie

    Nov 25, 2004
    1
    0
    Here we go again!!

    Yes folks here we go again, Qantas is unhappy that things are gettting out of control,well HELLO what did they expect from their members?. They introduce a points program..everyone goes out and spends on their Qantas telstra visa card ( or similair) of which I assume they get a commission... gain points and then want to fly, here comes the hard part giving away seats for free, they only have one first class seat allocated to this section, 2 for business class and several more for economy. They have created a monster that is of their own doing and don't want to continue. so the only way is to make it harder to earn points and more difficult to upgrade. Shame on you Qantas!!
     
  15. Red1

    Red1 Newbie

    Nov 25, 2004
    1
    0
    To Email Qantas

    For FF members and NON members go to qantas.com.au, and go to HELP then Feedback.

    Qantas need to hear your complaints.

    SYD-AUCKLAND econ was 30,000 points, now 45,000 points!!!

    Ahhhhhh!!!!
    [/b]
     
  16. thredbo

    thredbo Newbie

    Nov 25, 2004
    1
    0
    QANTAS Who?

    The best thing I ever did 4 years ago was to boycott QANTAS and join the United Airlines FF program. Star Alliance has been great! I can fly from Sydney to anywhere in the US for 60,000 points (off peak). You can't beat that. I guess with the collapse of Ansett, QANTAS can do as they please with their FF program. Oh wait...on top of that I flew from a return trip to/from the US last month and got double points....So I'm already 2/3 of the way to a free LAX(or anywhere else in the US)-SYD return trip. I guess Im set, as I live in the US but I don't know what I'd do if I was living in Sydney still.
     
  17. serfty

    Moderator

    Nov 16, 2004
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    Re: To Email Qantas

    Actually SYD-AKL Economy return was 30K, now 36K as two zone 2 "Y trips" at 18K each.
    Business was 45K, now 72K as two zone 2 "J trips" at 36k :evil:
     
  18. timbo66

    timbo66 Newbie

    Nov 25, 2004
    1
    0
    Adelaide
    ADL-SYD

    Adelaide Sydney - was 20,000 return - now 24,000 return.

    Doesn't really make much difference as every time I have tried to use them there is no seat availability either one way or the other. :?
     
  19. Goldcake

    Goldcake Newbie

    Nov 25, 2004
    1
    0
    QFF

    Qantas, who are they.Who Cares
    You guys have short memories, they did it before just about the time they screwed Compass and then again just about the time that Ansett went belly up.
    I am based in Malaysia and over ten years got nothing but grief trying to deal with the big Q from here and had to frequently ring direct to Australia and sit on hold to get things done, organised or corrected.
    I sat on the tarmac for 1 1/2 hours in Singapore on 2 flights with no meaningfull apology, water, drinks or anything else on one and only water on the other (at least the guy next to me had a bottle of duty free which we consumed despite the protests of the old shepherds they employ).
    Reason one, they forgot to load the drinking water, reason two they had forgotten half the food (which is crap anyway) The aircon sort of worked but could not cope and dripped water on half the passengers and in fact in one case wet al hte overhead luggage.

    So my average 5-6 trips per year between here and Oz are now on SIA (and sometimes Malaysian,) My domestic in OZ are usually on Virgin at least the staff can smile and have a good attitude.
    I fly Sia, and MAS locally here and if I can Air Asia (its a clone of Virgin same smiling attitudes so even if it is a one class and I can fly business I fly with them)
    BTW, I also do not let my 30 odd staff fly on qantas anymore except if there is no other available.

    So SIA for me, qantas stay away your not wlecome here
     
  20. mbeder

    mbeder Member

    Jul 3, 2002
    189
    14
    Sydney
    While I am in no way in favour of these changes, I think we need to put a different perspective on it and look at our points as equivalent to cash. This way, the effect on points that the changes result in, can be seen to be similar to the effects of inflation on cash. EG when spare money is stuffed under the matress, or sitting in a bank account (for those with savings!) it often has less buying when it is withdrawn and used for purchasing due to the CPI. Obviously one can earn interest on the cash if it is locked away on term deposit or high interest savings account. However we can't really blame the bank for rises in the cost of living when we use money that is ordinarily just sitting in a account. So, in turn, can we blame QFF for effectively raising their prices for 'points' tickets - as they do this periodically with tickets paid for in cash?
    I've been a loyal QFF member for 10 years and have managed (with some flexibility and timing) to recoup domestic & international free flights (majority in peak season) to the value of at least $20k. All this by using credit cards smartly and being loyal to QF (and oneworld partners) when flying. I will remain loyal to QF as it is the one brand that I am proud to support.
    BTW, everytime the banks have revised their CC points systems, we have just moved on, eg after moving to Altitude from QT Visa, we are now proudly supporting Suncorp with our Official Wallabies Visa cards.
    Anyway, time to get off my soap-box, and no, I am not a QF spokesperson or employee!
     
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