Qantas may ditch most first class seats...

[harvyk]

Qantas may ditch most first-class seats | Business | News.com.au

Just out of interest, does anyone know what short haul first class seats they are talking about... I was under the impression that LAX \ JFK \ LHR where the only places which got F class these days. (As well as SIN by virtue of being a stop over place for LHR)

 

[Mal]

I have no idea. NYC-LAX would be the shortest route I know of with F.

Even MEL-HKG goes through to London (although F on that is likely on the chopping block based on their 'trials').

Perhaps some flights like SYD-HKG or SYD-EZE etc.

 

[djfuzz]

Surprising that F on MEL-HKG-LHR is on the chopping block given his comments about LHR being a first class destination - perhaps they will phase out F on 744s and only have it on A380s, which will probably only fly to LAX and LHR anyway, through SIN, BKK and HKG.

He neglected to mention JFK as a 'first-class' route, so given QF107 will never be an A380 route, it might be reconfigured to Y/W/J.

 

[harvyk]

I'd be surprised if JFK wasn't considered a "first class route"...

Also why would QF107 \ QF108 never be an A380 route?

 

[djfuzz]

I'd be surprised if JFK wasn't considered a "first class route"...

Also why would QF107 \ QF108 never be an A380 route?

JFK doesn't seem to support the numbers on any airline - 107/8 runs half empty there (in J at least, and far less full in Y than LAX). EK withdrew their A380 services to JFK due to weak demand.

 

[notzac]

Surely it would make more sense to run 107/108 LAX-JFK-LAX in a smaller plane - e.g., an A330?

 

[djfuzz]

Surely it would make more sense to run 107/108 LAX-JFK-LAX in a smaller plane - e.g., an A330?

Someone was speculating elsewhere that that may end up being the case if they turn QF25/26 into a JQ 787 service from MEL-AKL-LAX-JFK.

As for a dedicated A330, seems like something they might do, but ironically it may not quite have the capacity to cater for the J demand from all of the three-four eastern seaboard feeder flights (30J vs 66J on the 744).

Also it might not be the best utilisation of that aircraft - it may mean diverting an A330 full time for one 'domestic' return five/six hour flight a day for an aircraft that is better suited to medium/longhaul, high Y-demand routes.

Just random thoughts though, happy to be corrected by anyone that knows better.

 

[docjames]

JFK doesn't seem to support the numbers on any airline - 107/8 runs half empty there (in J at least, and far less full in Y than LAX). EK withdrew their A380 services to JFK due to weak demand.

Do you have a stat or quote to back that up? Every QF107 I've been on is chockers, 108 less so but still pretty full. Sample is across multiple cabins. Also, my father travels this route frequently (at the pointy end of the plane) and at times he has trouble getting seats. Most recently he was forced to book a seat on DL LAX-JFK-LAX owing to unavailability (his waitlist cleared on 107/108 in the end).

Not saying overall demands aren't weak (my "samples" may be erroneous), but it seems to be commonly quoted around here that load factors are weak on 107/108 but i'm yet to see hard numbers. And my experience suggests otherwise.

Also, dont forget the often quoted heavy cargo demand LAX-JFK that makes up for some of the potentially empty seats.

As the 744s phase out, expect the 380 to make an appearance on LAX-JFK-LAX.

 

[djfuzz]

Do you have a stat or quote to back that up? Every QF107 I've been on is chockers, 108 less so but still pretty full. Sample is across multiple cabins. Also, my father travels this route frequently (at the pointy end of the plane) and at times he has trouble getting seats. Most recently he was forced to book a seat on DL LAX-JFK-LAX owing to unavailability (his waitlist cleared on 107/108 in the end).

Not saying overall demands aren't weak (my "samples" may be erroneous), but it seems to be commonly quoted around here that load factors are weak on 107/108 but i'm yet to see hard numbers. And my experience suggests otherwise.

Also, dont forget the often quoted heavy cargo demand LAX-JFK that makes up for some of the potentially empty seats.

As the 744s phase out, expect the 380 to make an appearance on LAX-JFK-LAX.

Well, I don't work for Qantas, so no, I don't have stats - I can only speak from similar experience across the cabins which differs from your own. I've been stranded or rebooked on AA several times from JFK because QF hasn't had the numbers to bother flying 107 on LAX-JFK and return on 108.

Putting that aside though, do you really think that they will ever have the demand to fill an A380 from LAX-JFK? This is a route they're not allowed to sell other than in conjunction with an international leg due to cabotage rules, and only picks up feeder traffic from MEL/SYD/BNE that goes on to JFK, a much smaller proportion than for LAX. In addition, the operating costs are going to be greater if not simply due to the fact that T7 at JFK can't accommodate an A380.

Of course, as you said, some day in the future the 744s will eventually have to go - I just don't see how an A380 would be the logical replacement on a route that IMHO doesn't seem to require that kind of capacity.

 

[serfty]

IME, it's the WHY cabin of JFK/LAX that is not travelling full.

The J and F cabins seem to be very popular.

 

[docjames]

I'd say thay's a fair call serfty, but it would be nice if we could find some stats to back this up.

If it was really that un-economic, i dont doubt QF would drop it. As the pacific flying moves to more 388s and less 744s i'd say the 388 will be making the trip across the continent.

Guess we're going to have to wait a while before we see.

 

[harvyk]

The only problem with flying an A330 across the US is they would have to get it there first. That said QF25\26 used to operate as an A330 from time to time MEL-AKL-LAX, no reason why they couldn't make QF25\26 operate as a MEL-AKL-LAX-JFK as an A330... (Would make me sad though, as I am a much bigger fan of the B747's over the A330's)

 

[maninblack]

It will be years before all of the 744's are gone, perhaps 5, maybe 10 so LAX-JFK really is not an issue for a long time. Anyway there are all sorts of flexible options.

Keep a 744 running for at least the next 15 years if they want.
Refit an A330 with more J seats.
787 when it comes.

A380 would seem an unlikely waste of the aircraft on this route, but it is essentially a "vanity" route so perhaps!

 

[Travel Guru]

A380 would seem an unlikely waste of the aircraft on this route, but it is essentially a "vanity" route so perhaps!

I think that's the problem alot of the airlines are beginning to realise, that the A380 is a waste on all but the busiest of routes and that as an aircraft it doesn't offer anywhere near the flexibility that a 744 does.

Hopefully QF will pick up a few 748's when Boeing get their butts into gear, its long been my favorite aircraft, and i'd love to see far less Airbus's and far more Boeings on the routes I fly.

TG

 

[estate]

I've been keeping an eye on the J loadings for 107/108 recently, as I'm traveling it in December and may end up on it in November as well. J seems relatively heavily booked although a lot of bookings seem to be happening close to departure.

I had figured QF would keep 107/8 as a 744 right up until they retire the last of them from the fleet. Y loads seem lower as previously noted, so surely something like a 787 with a high-J configuration would be a better bet?

Then they can leave 11/12, 93/94 as A380 and run 15/16 and 107/108 with 787s. Or, terminate 107/108 at LAX and run 15/16 on to JFK with a 787 and adjust schedules accordingly.

 

[NM]

SYD-HKG on QF127 is probably one of the shorter flights with F (that is not a segment of a longer service).

Remember that this is a media interpretation of a statement aimed at the media by an airline executive. To "ditch" may mean to sell the current F cabin as J service, as has been done quite a lot recently. It may not mean removing the F seats. Then again, they may do so in order to fit more Y and W seats into the aircraft.

As more A380s come on board, there will be less need for 744s with F cabins. Its quite possible that A380 will be the only F cabins, and all 744s may end up back to 3-class with J, W and Y cabins. Anything is feasible.

 

[trooper]

With the usual caveat that different markets/routes/cultures etc can make a huge difference...

It seems to have worked for NZ... It is now some years since "First" was abandoned.... and almost as many since Premium Economy was introduced... So.... C/Y+/Y on both longhaul a/c types..

I suppose one has to recognise that NZ's current highest class.. "Business Premier".. is equal to (at least in seat terms) many past (or even present?) "First" class offerings...

Interesting that NZ DID get rid of "First" and that QF may be considering it... where other airlines (SQ...EK?) have pretty much gone further down the track of producing more and more elaborate First arrangements... I wonder how that is really working for them...

..anecdotal evidence suggests SQ's Suites is NOT a big seller....

 

[Flying Fox]

Yes I agree that the A380s will probably be the only ones with F eventually. Everything else will probably be J, Y+ & Y.

As much as I would love to have the B748 in QF colours, I doubt that we will see it.

I think that QF will go for a B787-10 if Boeing ever make it or a A350-1000 to fill the gap under the A380. I believe that these aircraft won't be fitted with F either.

Hopefully on the F that they have left, they will still have reward seat (unlike SQ and their A380 F-class).

 

[trooper]

Well... to be a pedantic bugger SQ has never called it "F" on the 380... they call it "Suites" and it books into something weird like "R"....

The website called it "A class beyond First" (where is the throwing up smiley?)

Hard to redeem for something that has never matched anything on the redemption tables!

BUT.. if you want to complain about the lack of C redemptions on the whale, OR the lack of C/F redemptions on the 77W I'll be right with you!

 

[NYCguy]

Surely it would make more sense to run 107/108 LAX-JFK-LAX in a smaller plane - e.g., an A330?

It would make more sense to just interline with AA and not run a 744 to JFK and back once a day at all.