Middle East Airspace Diversions/Cancellations

[Berlin]

The fact we are even debating this really, really confuses me. I'm sure all of you know how conservative general aviation regulation is at the best of times. I can't pass security with a bottle of water

Yes, that’s exactly the point. An “authority” that comes up with such idiotic rules (and can’t change it in 20 or so years despite all evidence) is to be trusted just because… They’re an “authority” full of “experts”? Yea, no. I’m not a lemming and plenty others aren’t either.

 

[AuSammy]

Why wouldn't they? Statistically they are safer.

Lukla is safer than where?

 

[Seat0B]

Clearly they are only focused on repatriating/repositioning and I can’t see this changing anytime soon - at what point do we think they will extend their refund options? Booked in J & R to EU via DOH later this month, have found alternate options via SIN but Qatar effectively purporting to offer normal schedules beyond their current cutoff of March 15th seems.. parsimonious.

Yep totally agree with you. Seat Daughter and family are affected by this with VA (QR) bookings for 21 March.

 

[clifford]

Well, OK, this (friendly dispute in the ME via the USA) seems to be going nowhere.

I have a flight ticketed through AUH for a couple of weeks time. I'd prefer not to take it, and get a refund. EY isn't playing ball at the moment (wants its cash of course). Thinks its perfectly safe to travel (if you dodge the drone debris).

Because of this nonsense, I have also booked a week in a very nice apartment (fully refundable) on the Gold Coast (of OOL fame) and would like that to happen. However, if EY strong arm me to fly through their ("safe") hub, I'll be unimpressed, but assuming I get to Europe unscathed I'll be relieved.

Then I'll have to navigate all this absolute garbage on the way back.

I do hope some folks will remember how these ME airlines treated them (they won't of course). But I will (truly).

 

[IrishPete]

Well, OK, this (friendly dispute in the ME via the USA) seems to be going nowhere.

I have a flight ticketed through AUH for a couple of weeks time. I'd prefer not to take it, and get a refund. EY isn't playing ball at the moment (wants its cash of course). Thinks its perfectly safe to travel (if you dodge the drone debris).

Because of this nonsense, I have also booked a week in a very nice apartment (fully refundable) on the Gold Coast (of OOL fame) and would like that to happen. However, if EY strong arm me to fly through their ("safe") hub, I'll be unimpressed, but assuming I get to Europe unscathed I'll be relieved.

Then I'll have to navigate all this absolute garbage on the way back.

I do hope some folks will remember how these ME airlines treated them (they won't of course). But I will (truly).

We will remember Qatar's fantastic Business Class on the way to Europe, and the lounge in Doha, but I will also remember the complete absence of any communication about our return flights. We already had some misgivings about this airline because of their infamous treatment of female passengers a few years ago, and this recent experience adds further doubt.

But they're Virgin's primary partner, particularly for reward flights...

 

[clifford]

But they're Virgin's primary partner, particularly for reward flights...

One of the reasons I have given VA away.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Well, OK, this (friendly dispute in the ME via the USA) seems to be going nowhere.

I have a flight ticketed through AUH for a couple of weeks time. I'd prefer not to take it, and get a refund. EY isn't playing ball at the moment (wants its cash of course). Thinks its perfectly safe to travel (if you dodge the drone debris).

Because of this nonsense, I have also booked a week in a very nice apartment (fully refundable) on the Gold Coast (of OOL fame) and would like that to happen. However, if EY strong arm me to fly through their ("safe") hub, I'll be unimpressed, but assuming I get to Europe unscathed I'll be relieved.

Then I'll have to navigate all this absolute garbage on the way back.

I do hope some folks will remember how these ME airlines treated them (they won't of course). But I will (truly).

I’d give it a bit more time… but I wonder if there’s an angle here under ACL? A product must be fit for purpose. If there’s even the slightest chance that they’re impacted by action, I wonder if the product is still fit for purpose? You didn’t sign up to transit an active war zone, nor a flight where you’re going to be under significant stress for the hours before landing and then again on departure.

 

[clifford]

I’d give it a bit more time… but I wonder if there’s an angle here under ACL? A product must be fit for purpose. If there’s even the slightest chance that they’re impacted by action, I wonder if the product is still fit for purpose? You didn’t sign up to transit an active war zone, nor a flight where you’re going to be under significant stress for the hours before landing and then again on departure.

Very true, but I (no one) wants to go through all that rigmarole, with an uncertain outcome.

Basically, I don't want to lose the thousands of $$$ I have paid for this EY ticket because of some absolute morons in another continent that I didn't vote for.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Very true, but I (no one) wants to go through all that rigmarole, with an uncertain outcome.

Basically, I don't want to lose the thousands of $$$ I have paid for this EY ticket because of some absolute morons in another continent that I didn't vote for.

I’m not suggesting you’re racing off to court or lodging at VCAT/NCAT or whatever in your state… but making enquiries with the right people, starting maybe with consumer affairs in your state (advice given free of charge) and then reaching out to the airline depending on what consumer affairs advises. You have nothing to lose.

We see with QR that theyre not particularly across local consumer laws… drawing attention to them might be all that’s needed.

 

[elanshin]

And don't forget that when people buy tickets for a seat on a commercial airline, price is the main purchasing decision factor. "Safest airline in the world" is a distant factor or actually not even a factor at all.

MH17/Mh370 did not significant affect post facto seat loads AFAIK. Neither did EK crash at DXB , EK near miss at JFK and OZ crash at SFO. There are others

Ill say all it takes is one plane hit full of people and the airline will have to fight the reputation for years.
I disagree that MH wasn't impacted bg 17 and 370. There were loads of people that no longer wanted to travel on MH.

Also we came very close to that scenario. Drone hit DXB only a couple of hundred metre away from planes and main terminal building with loads of pax (aussies included) watching both on board planes, at the terminal and from nearby.

 

[clifford]

Ill say all it takes is one plane hit full of people and the airline will have to fight the reputation for years.
I disagree that MH wasn't impacted bg 17 and 370. There were loads of people that no longer wanted to travel on MH.

Also we came very close to that scenario. Drone hit DXB only a couple of hundred metre away from planes and main terminal building with loads of pax (aussies included) watching both on board planes, at the terminal and from nearby.

You're 100% right. Even coming close to an aircraft which is empty should be enough to close an airport. But not in the UAE. They don't want to lose their revenue, but they may lose their credibility.

But drones and missiles are currently being directed towards Dubai as we speak. How safe can that be?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Ill say all it takes is one plane hit full of people and the airline will have to fight the reputation for years.
I disagree that MH wasn't impacted bg 17 and 370. There were loads of people that no longer wanted to travel on MH.

Also we came very close to that scenario. Drone hit DXB only a couple of hundred metre away from planes and main terminal building with loads of pax (aussies included) watching both on board planes, at the terminal and from nearby.

But importantly, no government or ‘expert’ ever questioned the MH choice of flight path or attempted to hold them accountable.

I suspect the same thing will happen in the ME… the airlines won’t be questioned, rather the blame will be on Iran (which is another reason why Iran may not be specifically targeting planes or airports… it will only spur retaliation).

And if Australia was to send military aircraft to evacuate citizens and one of those got hit? Would we hold the government accountable, or would the focus be that we were doing everything possible to help people?

 

[Hunter4vr]

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Qatar sticking to the 15 March cut off for a refund of any flights is ridiculous. Surely they’re not expecting to be 100% operational by then.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You're 100% right. Even coming close to an aircraft which is empty should be enough to close an airport. But not in the UAE. They don't want to lose their revenue, but they may lose their credibility.

But drones and missiles are currently being directed towards Dubai as we speak. How safe can that be?

Do we know for certain this is driven by profits or money?

It’s not ‘safe’. It’s an active war zone.

It’s about whether the risk is acceptable to those who want to get out of the place. And it’s about weighing up the window to get out before the war potentially escalates.

 

[clifford]

Do we know for certain this is driven by profits or money?

And the reputation of the UAE being a safe and reliable haven in the ME. The Emiratis don't want that to be exposed, so showing business as usual lets the world know that the UAE is a safe and reliable place to do business.

Unfortunately, they didn't get Iran onside with that.

BTW, I didn't make that up. Check the Financial Times, Bloomberg, etc, etc. (but not the NY Post, or the Miami Herald). Sorry.

 

[Quickstatus]

I disagree that MH wasn't impacted bg 17 and 370. There were loads of people that no longer wanted to travel on MH.

A lot still flew with MH and EK did not appear to suffer any problems with loads after the EK crash or near miss + some other LCC. OZ crash? No issues. The net effect at least was temporary and not substantial. B787 manufacturing issues and 737Max? Most people won't know of the above incidents and really, they won't care

Risk perception is very individual.

 

[Beer_budget]

A lot still flew with MH and EK did not appear to suffer any problems with loads after the EK crash or near miss + some other LCC. OZ crash? No issues. The net effect at least was temporary and not substantial. B787 manufacturing issues and 737Max? Most people won't know of the above incidents and really, they won't care

Risk perception is very individual.

MH17 and 370 incidents didn't change my in-laws (then fairly regular) use of Malaysian. Their replacement soon thereafter of PDB with pre-departure prayer, on the other hand...

 

[justinbrett]

But importantly, no government or ‘expert’ ever questioned the MH choice of flight path or attempted to hold them accountable.

I suspect the same thing will happen in the ME… the airlines won’t be questioned, rather the blame will be on Iran (which is another reason why Iran may not be specifically targeting planes or airports… it will only spur retaliation).

And if Australia was to send military aircraft to evacuate citizens and one of those got hit? Would we hold the government accountable, or would the focus be that we were doing everything possible to help people?

If you listen to what the Foriegn Minister and her assistant actually say, they use their words carefully and never tell Australians to take a commercial flight. It’s always phrased like it was today Australians in the region, if they are offered a seat on a commercial flight, should seriously consider taking that option. No direction to take the flights, and no claim that they are safe.

The smart traveller advice for the UAE is quite accurate IMO:
Consider a commercial option to depart if you can secure one and it's safe to travel to the departure point. You should consider recent attacks in your area and that airports and aircraft are more vulnerable to these strikes.

If anybody wishes to fly they should do so with their eyes open, many will think because EK is operating then the flights must be safe, but I don’t believe the is the case. After the events yesterday, I personally think you’re mad to get on a flight from DXB. I’d be looking at ground options to another country.

Some may want to brush over it but the hard facts are that the UAE and Qatar are currently war zones.