Qantas delays flights in Perth

[JohnK]

Which begs me the question, I have QP.. even though I'm not flying, could I have taken her into the QP bagdrop line with me and played ignorance? "Oh I didn't know I had to be flying too, but she is my partner after all"

I think that you would have to be at least travelling, most likely together, to be able to use your status at check-in.

 

[codash1099]

Back to the original subject, it has been reported that only QF delayed flights over this period. Other airlines continued pretty much as normal.

Begs the question "who was right?". Are QF overcautious (or, heaven forbid, seeing a way around having to report further delayed departures) or were the other airlines a tad reckless?

 

[NM]

Back to the original subject, it has been reported that only QF delayed flights over this period. Other airlines continued pretty much as normal.

Begs the question "who was right?". Are QF overcautious (or, heaven forbid, seeing a way around having to report further delayed departures) or were the other airlines a tad reckless?

Good question.

If QF had not cancelled, and they had a problem or close encounter with another aircraft, the media would have ripped them apart for risking the lives of their passengers.

Perhaps QF's decision was influenced by the fact that they tend to operate larger aircraft to/from PER than other operators (743s and 763s). Yes, I know QF and DJ both operate 738s as well. One of the highest risks when ATC is not available is that of smaller aircraft getting in the way of larger aircraft. Perhaps the less manoeuvrable 743s and 763s influenced QF's risk management decision.

Or perhaps QF is sympathetic to the call for more ATC staff to be employed by Air Services Australia and they were happy to support the media campaign by the ATC union?

I guess there could be lots of reasons.

 

[chrisb]

I guess there could be lots of reasons.

QF may not have an operational procedure for operating 743's into uncontrolled airports where as they (and virgin) probably do for the 738.

I agree with their decision on this one.

Chrisb.

 

[Expon]

The airspace becomes TIBA = Traffic Information Broadcasts by Aircraft, same as CTAF but they is only 2 frequencies, related to your alititude.

I guess weather has alot to do with it. I think TIBA is dangerous but even worse when there is weather around, just a little cloud can greatly multiply the risk. I know for a fact if I were flying on an aircraft and we had to go through TIBA airspace, I'd ask to be moved to another flight, no matter what the delay was, especially if it were is close promixity to an aerodrome.

 

[straitman]

The airspace becomes TIBA = Traffic Information Broadcasts by Aircraft, same as CTAF but they is only 2 frequencies, related to your alititude.

I guess weather has alot to do with it. I think TIBA is dangerous but even worse when there is weather around, just a little cloud can greatly multiply the risk. I know for a fact if I were flying on an aircraft and we had to go through TIBA airspace, I'd ask to be moved to another flight, no matter what the delay was, especially if it were is close promixity to an aerodrome.

Expon,

There is just a little more to it though than basic TIBA procedures.

The relevant situation is covered 'Contingency procedures - Air Traffic Services Temporarily Not Available'

Operators are responsible for obtaining any required changes to their Air Operator's Certificate.
Details of specific procedures are promulgated by NOTAM
TIBA procedures will apply utilising a nominated broadcast frequency. Additional, mandatory broadcast procedures as specified in AIP's shall be adopted. --- These are in essence the same as the CTAF(R) procedures.

The kicker with all this is:
'Nothing in these procedures precludes the pilot from exercising responsibility for safe operations, including separation and collision avaidance with other aircraft in the air and on the ground.'

For those who are really keen the information is found in AIP Gen 3.3 Para 4 & 5.
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com.au/publications/current/aip/gen/3_3_1-24.pdf

 

[nlagalle]

The airspace becomes TIBA = Traffic Information Broadcasts by Aircraft, same as CTAF but they is only 2 frequencies, related to your alititude.

I guess weather has alot to do with it. I think TIBA is dangerous but even worse when there is weather around, just a little cloud can greatly multiply the risk. I know for a fact if I were flying on an aircraft and we had to go through TIBA airspace, I'd ask to be moved to another flight, no matter what the delay was, especially if it were is close promixity to an aerodrome.

You wouldn't even know if you were flying through uncontrolled airspace. And TIBA is a procedure, not an airspace. There are plenty of airports around Australia that aren't towered.

 

[NM]

You wouldn't even know if you were flying through uncontrolled airspace.

But at FL300 there are likely to be few of the less experienced "Cessna" pilots getting in the way of the 743 as it flies "over" the uncontrolled airspace.

And TIBA is a procedure, not an airspace. There are plenty of airports around Australia that aren't towered.

I am not aware of too many from which 743s and 763s operate.

 

[nlagalle]

But at FL300 there are likely to be few of the less experienced "Cessna" pilots getting in the way of the 743 as it flies "over" the uncontrolled airspace..

And what about getting too and from FL300. GA and RPT often are in the same airspace at different points. Look up Class E airspace.

I am not aware of too many from which 743s and 763s operate.

Maybe not 743's and 763's Although places like Mildura and Kalgoorlie can take 763's (And Mildura has in the past).

 

[NM]

And what about getting too and from FL300. GA and RPT often are in the same airspace at different points. Look up Class E airspace.

Yes, indeed. And this caused a great stir when the changes were introduced a few years back.

Maybe not 743's and 763's Although places like Mildura and Kalgoorlie can take 763's (And Mildura has in the past).

Was that a scheduled arrival at Mildura or a diversion? That would be quite a site and a very quick way to overflow the tin shed ... umm ... terminal.

And don't forget the 742 (and 707 for that matter) that QF flew into Longreach.

 

[Expon]

You wouldn't even know if you were flying through uncontrolled airspace. And TIBA is a procedure, not an airspace. There are plenty of airports around Australia that aren't towered.

There is a difference between an airport not being controlled and TIBA. Non controlled aerodromes at least have traffic and SAR services. TIBA has neither, therefor you may not even know about that cessna until it is too late, where as non controlled aerodromes will tell you that its in the area and its location if known.

 

[nlagalle]

Yes, indeed. And this caused a great stir when the changes were introduced a few years back.

Always does.. 10 years ago the airspace was a mess. not as bad as it was, but not as good as the US. The US has a great system in place which is what D*ck Smith wanted to bring in years ago. What we have now is part of the way there. And there is nothing wrong with Class E either.

Was that a scheduled arrival at Mildura or a diversion? That would be quite a site and a very quick way to overflow the tin shed ... umm ... terminal.

RPT, from when the tennis was there a few years back.

Pilots are very good at self seperation.. we were always taught Aviate, Navigate, Communicate in that order.

 

[Expon]

Always does.. 10 years ago the airspace was a mess. not as bad as it was, but not as good as the US. The US has a great system in place which is what D*ck Smith wanted to bring in years ago. What we have now is part of the way there. And there is nothing wrong with Class E either

Lets not forget that USA has MUCH BETTER radar coverage than Australia.

Pilots are very good at self seperation.. we were always taught Aviate, Navigate, Communicate in that order.

What about when there is more than 2 ACFT around with weather? No offence but eyes go inside the coughpit when you can't see much outside.

 

[nlagalle]

Lets not forget that USA has MUCH BETTER radar coverage than Australia.

wrong. TAAATS is a much newer system than what the US have. The radar in New York for example is much worse than anything else we have here.

What about when there is more than 2 ACFT around with weather? No offence but eyes go inside the coughpit when you can't see much outside.

Read up on IFR and VFR rules. if the conditions were IFR and ATC was not available, no one would be taking off..

 

[nlagalle]

There is a difference between an airport not being controlled and TIBA. Non controlled aerodromes at least have traffic and SAR services. TIBA has neither, therefor you may not even know about that cessna until it is too late, where as non controlled aerodromes will tell you that its in the area and its location if known.

Wrong. Read the AIP. just because the tower closes doesn't mean there is no ATC. Pilots can get clearance on the ground and make the appropriate calls to get airborne.

 

[Expon]

Wrong. Read the AIP. just because the tower closes doesn't mean there is no ATC. Pilots can get clearance on the ground and make the appropriate calls to get airborne.

If there were ATC they wouldn't be TIBA. There is always more than 1 controller working at any time therefore it depends on where the staffing issue is to which part will be TIBA. Yes you may have been able to get your clearance on the ground, you may have even been able to get a runway clearance, but if there was no terminal controller you are on your own outside of the tower's airspace. Also you must request a clearance prior to the boundary of the airspace operating under TIBA. You don't need a clearance to enter the TIBA airspace however you do need one when you leave it to airspace with ATC service active.

 

[nlagalle]

If there were ATC they wouldn't be TIBA. There is always more than 1 controller working at any time therefore it depends on where the staffing issue is to which part will be TIBA. Yes you may have been able to get your clearance on the ground, you may have even been able to get a runway clearance, but if there was no terminal controller you are on your own outside of the tower's airspace. Also you must request a clearance prior to the boundary of the airspace operating under TIBA. You don't need a clearance to enter the TIBA airspace however you do need one when you leave it to airspace with ATC service active.

TIBA isn't airspace, it's a procedure. Read the AIP's. In relation to Perth If the tower closes due to understaffing, it doesn't shut down everything. ATC is handled in Melbourne and Brisbane anyway and Perth comes under Melbourne.

 

[Expon]

Both Perth Tower and terminal are controlled directly out of Perth. En-route above is done in Melbourne. I realise TIBA is a procedure and the airspace classification does not change however lets face it, its the same as class G without any ATC service at all. Aircraft are provided with a traffic statement upon entering the 'TIBA' sector and provided with known traffic once in contact with the next sector after the 'TIBA' sector. A clearance is then provided if the aircraft is required to enter controlled airspace.

AIP is not the only document with information regarding TIBA.

 

[nlagalle]

Both Perth Tower and terminal are controlled directly out of Perth. En-route above is done in Melbourne. I realise TIBA is a procedure and the airspace classification does not change however lets face it, its the same as class G without any ATC service at all. Aircraft are provided with a traffic statement upon entering the 'TIBA' sector and provided with known traffic once in contact with the next sector after the 'TIBA' sector. A clearance is then provided if the aircraft is required to enter controlled airspace.

AIP is not the only document with information regarding TIBA.

I think you'll find it's handled out of Melbourne:
Melbourne Centre

And pilots use the AIP's for these sort of things. What are you reading?

 

[Expon]

Terminal Navigation services and Terminal Radar services for Melbourne and Canberra are provided from the Melbourne facility with the Sydney, Adelaide and Perth terminal units managed from Melbourne. There are 152 terminal area controllers.


If you go to perth airport you will see a tower, it has controllers in it, just like the building next to it. They provide tower and terminal services for Perth. They are not in Melbourne but Perth is in the Melbourne FIR. The managers for the FIR are in Melbourne. It is managed in Mlebourne but not run from Melbourne. Sydney and Adelaide do the same thing. Only melbourne and Canberra approach/departures are handled from Melbourne centre, of course there is a tower in Canberra, how else would they see the runway?