Qantas cancelled business seat -what compensation is reasonable

[NM]

Given that the OP was re-accommodated in business class on Thai Airways, no financial compensation will be due. If they had be accommodated in Premium Economy or Economy then some compensation would certainly be due.

However, the OP could request "Original Routing Credit" to receive QFF points and status credits as if they have travelled on QF flights.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I bought two business class seats on qantas to London via Bangkok. In Sydney we received the boarding passes for both sectors . When we arrived in Bangkok in business class lounge we were informed that we had been bumped from the flight despite having seating allocated in Sydney ( and being told their were spare seats beside us). The staff advised us that we were being reseated in premium economy and would receive 300 pounds (or 200 if we wanted cash.) We declined and requested our original allocated seats. The staff person with ba badge said that because our ticket was on special that we were chosen. Later she told us that it was because we had booked the tickets recently -purchased 2 months prior. We were swapped to Thai airways in business -no compensation- however I had chosen qantas because of the lie flat seating. What compensation is reasonable and what is the best way to get qantas to respond. I am also concerned that if I complain the same issue will occur on way home. Any feedback appreciated .

Did you have checked luggage at all & if so did they manage to retag your bags on to the TG flight to LHR?

Also the airport staff in SYD who told you the seats were 'spare' probably looked at the BA seat map for the flight & saw that at that moment in time there were unallocated seats beside you. This has no bearing on whether or not there will be anyone in those seats at time of departure as it totally depends on how many pax are booked in the cabin on that flight.

AFAIK QF can't directly access the BA flight info that would tell them the load factors so would not see the same info they would for QF flights such as the SYD/BKK sector.

There would have been pax joining the flight in BKK who would not be checking in until about 2-3 hours prior to departure whilst you're enroute to BKK so whilst other pax were booked and confirmed in J may not have had pre-allocated seats.

 

[markis10]

Given that the OP was re-accommodated in business class on Thai Airways, no financial compensation will be due. If they had be accommodated in Premium Economy or Economy then some compensation would certainly be due.

However, the OP could request "Original Routing Credit" to receive QFF points and status credits as if they have travelled on QF flights.

I dont believe thats the case under EU laws for Denied Boarding, compensation is halved if the flight arrives within two hours of the original, which is possible given TG depart 5 mins after BA ex BKK. Of course the question is, is it a denied boarding when a downgrade offer is not taken under said EU laws?

 

[anat0l]

Of course the question is, is it a denied boarding when a downgrade offer is not taken under said EU laws?

The way I read it is that BA first approaches passengers to deny boarding or accept a lower class of travel.

For the former case, there would be standard care provisions plus whatever BA bargains with the passenger to get them to give up their seat (which may include nothing on top). For the latter, there are no care provisions but a refund will be due (presumably 75% of fare as a Type 3 flight).

If there are no other passengers who will give up their seat but BA must resort to involuntary denied boarding, then all such pax are entitled to standard care provisions. If BA then can't find alternative travel at the same class, they will be liable for downgrade refund (if lower than the class booked - if the new class is higher than the booked one, e.g. First, BA cannot demand extra payment from the passenger).

The way I see this is that BA attempted first a downgrade, then denied boarding (involuntarily). I suppose BA could have "forcibly" downgraded the OP (but then it would need to follow through with the correct compensation otherwise there is an action under EU 261). I don't think that the OP declining the downgrade and pittance compensation would be seen as waiving any other rights under EU 261.


The care compensation is this case would realistically only be cash (this is "purely for inconvenience") and possibly receipts reimbursement for reasonable refreshments (if the OP purchased any). The normal cash amount would be halved since they would arrive close enough to the original BA flight.

This is how I see it, anyway.

 

[eastwest101]

The way I was reading it, this may apply...

EU regulation 261 is definitely applicable here as it is a valid ticket and reservation, and the operating carrier is an EU Community Carrier (British Airways). Even though British Airways has no "direct contract" with Pollie (i.e. the ticket was purchased from Qantas), under the obligations of the regulation, since it is the operating carrier fulfilling this part of the contract on behalf of Qantas, it is just as liable.

The way I see it is that Pollie was involuntarily downgraded (in fact, it doesn't matter here how they were downgraded), and also then involuntarily denied boarding (however, since an alternative equivalent class of travel was sought, that perhaps eliminates the liability of downgrading). I'd also assume that the Thai Airways flight they were accommodated on would've been similarly scheduled to the British Airways flight, and thus would easily arrive within 3 hours of the original flight.

So the net position I see here:

• Qantas (ticket seller, original contract): No liability.
• British Airways (operating carrier in question): Liability under EU 261/2004, under the provision of involuntary denied boarding, which entitles Pollie to:
  • Cash compensation: Type 3 flight amounting to EU 600, but this is halved if the Thai Airways flight is scheduled to arrive within 3 hours of the British Airways originally scheduled flight. So that's EUR 300 (AUD 374, or GBP 242, using today's exchange rate).
  • Rerouting / refunding: not applicable because Pollie didn't change any routings.
  • Care compensation: If Pollie bought any refreshments whilst waiting for the Thai Airways flight (possibly because they had no access to a lounge which they normally would have by flying British Airways), the retained receipts could be applied for reimbursement.

It probably doesn't make up for Pollie missing out on the product desired, but that said it would've been easier to have known of EU 261/2004 rights in the first place and exercised them at the time to get a better deal out of British Airways.

Long story short - apply to British Airways to get some compensation under EU 261/2004. If they refuse, then this could get complicated.


I know some people will say Qantas has some supreme liability or compensation due to Pollie because as the ticket seller, they need to take ultimate responsibility for all flights, irrespective of who operated them. I don't buy this argument, particularly when one of the operators anyway has statutory compensation obligations.

What are the chances/odds that if Pollie took his complaint to Qantas they would handball him over to BA and then vice-versa? BA Galleries access at LHR anyone????

I really hope Pollie comes back and lets us know what the resolution for this is. It could take a while though.

 

[simongr]

long, long ago, the only way the OP could travel from SYD to LHR via BKK is via QF metal to BKK then onwards with a BA operated, QF codeshare flight (or, it could just be the BA flight number, too).

The bolded bit was my point. He could have been on a BA flight number.

 

[anat0l]

The bolded bit was my point. He could have been on a BA flight number.

Will it make a difference? You can buy BA coded flights on the same itinerary using the QF website.

I don't think pax who fly on BA but on QF marketed tickets would have no rights under EU 261 in a case like this.

 

[markis10]

Will it make a difference? You can buy BA coded flights on the same itinerary using the QF website.

I don't think pax who fly on BA but on QF marketed tickets would have no rights under EU 261 in a case like this.

EU rules do specify operated as opposed to marketed flights.

 

[serfty]

It is difficult to waive any rights to compensation Under EU 261/2004 (although a PAX may simply decide not to follow up).

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:046:0001:0007:EN:PDF

 

[Simo]

F in return and CL for life go for that and see what they come back with, You might have to lower your expectations because they will come back with a counter offer but at least you have a starting point to negotiate from.

 

[Pollie]

Thanks everyone for the great ideas.. I will take up with qantas. Unfortunately when we arrived on saturday in uk my husband got sick and has been in hospital since. British health has been fantastic.. Better than qantas service. Will update on qantas response.

 

[Mal Ware]

Good move, Qantas is the company you paid for the flight so regardless of codeshare or agreements, you gave them your money so it is their responsibility to deal with any issues.

 

[Sprucegoose]

Thanks everyone for the great ideas.. I will take up with qantas. Unfortunately when we arrived on saturday in uk my husband got sick and has been in hospital since. British health has been fantastic.. Better than qantas service. Will update on qantas response.

My god I hope that wasn't the Thai curry. Hold onto your boarding passes! This is a bigger deal than we all thought.

Hope he fully recovers


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app

 

[djd]

Going to Ireland. Etihad is the only way to go, great J service.

 

[timster]

It is difficult to waive any rights to compensation Under EU 261/2004 (although a PAX may simply decide not to follow up).

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:046:0001:0007:EN:PDF

I've travelled with a copy of this doc in my Dropbox for some time. I expect I'll need to wave it at someone over the checkin counter one day !

I've also had to 'bargain' with BA checkin staff in BKK on several occasions as it's a common port for me (I believe it is local BA staff who handle both BA and QF in BKK .. wonder what QF will do in BKK now with no JSA .. also re their joint lounge ??). Anyway I am not sure that you'll ever win many arguments even when you finally get to speak to someone with some authority. As this was a transit of course you were dealing with the (typically junior) staff in the lounge. Thai smiles only go so far. And shouting never works in Thailand ! In Thailand itself consumer law is almost non-existent so the mentality would probably be 'we hold all the cards' ... who knows if they've been trained in the in and outs of EU law.

So what should one do when a situation such as this is thrown at you ? Get them to confirm first in writing that they are really "denying boarding" (in the class paid for) ? .. then take the best offer on the spot without waiving any rights or indicating that it is in any sense 'compensation' for your troubles ... and follow up later ?

Although it may ultimately be BA's liability, it would make most sense to me to follow the trail of responsibility from Flight Centre-Qantas-BA, and be able to quote the relevant EU law along the way so they don't fob you off.

 

[Julesmac]

Did you have checked luggage at all & if so did they manage to retag your bags on to the TG flight to LHR?

Also the airport staff in SYD who told you the seats were 'spare' probably looked at the BA seat map for the flight & saw that at that moment in time there were unallocated seats beside you. This has no bearing on whether or not there will be anyone in those seats at time of departure as it totally depends on how many pax are booked in the cabin on that flight.

AFAIK QF can't directly access the BA flight info that would tell them the load factors so would not see the same info they would for QF flights such as the SYD/BKK sector.

There would have been pax joining the flight in BKK who would not be checking in until about 2-3 hours prior to departure whilst you're enroute to BKK so whilst other pax were booked and confirmed in J may not have had pre-allocated seats.

Am I missing something here - surely the BA flight info would have to be available to code share partners?? Or the whole system's unworkable??
What I'm trying to say is, if the staff in Syd could see loading was a problem from BKK-LHR, couldn't they fix the problem before the pax departed SYD?

 

[markis10]

Am I missing something here - surely the BA flight info would have to be available to code share partners?? Or the whole system's unworkable??
What I'm trying to say is, if the staff in Syd could see loading was a problem from BKK-LHR, couldn't they fix the problem before the pax departed SYD?

Nope, the codeshare partners only see what seats they are allocated for sale, oversold info will not be passed to any other entity.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Am I missing something here - surely the BA flight info would have to be available to code share partners?? Or the whole system's unworkable??

What I'm trying to say is, if the staff in Syd could see loading was a problem from BKK-LHR, couldn't they fix the problem before the pax departed SYD?

The BA flight would have been available at the time the pax booked weeks or months ago otherwise pax could not have done the booking in the first place.

The flight may not have even been oversold when they checked in. BA could have chosen to oversell a flight for whatever reason hours before the flight was due to depart.

QF staff in SYD would not have access to BA's checkin system to look a the loads for a flight nor would they have reason to as the BKK/LHR boarding passes printed out.

QF have an IATCI agreement with BA for checkin but they don"t need to have access to the BA system to print the boarding passes.

I would be more suspicious of an oversale on BA if QF had not been able to issue the BA boarding passes in SYD.

 

[Julesmac]

Ok thanks Oz & Markis10. The fact that the boarding passes had printed threw me. Let's hope Pollie keeps us posted with the outcome.

 

[markis10]

BTW Qantas do publish a refund table for downgrades:

https://www.qantas.com.au/agents/dyn/qf/policies/FareRefundTableEffective17Sep12.pdf