Qantas cancelled business seat -what compensation is reasonable

[Pollie]

I bought two business class seats on qantas to London via Bangkok. In Sydney we received the boarding passes for both sectors . When we arrived in Bangkok in business class lounge we were informed that we had been bumped from the flight despite having seating allocated in Sydney ( and being told their were spare seats beside us). The staff advised us that we were being reseated in premium economy and would receive 300 pounds (or 200 if we wanted cash.) We declined and requested our original allocated seats. The staff person with ba badge said that because our ticket was on special that we were chosen. Later she told us that it was because we had booked the tickets recently -purchased 2 months prior. We were swapped to Thai airways in business -no compensation- however I had chosen qantas because of the lie flat seating. What compensation is reasonable and what is the best way to get qantas to respond. I am also concerned that if I complain the same issue will occur on way home. Any feedback appreciated .

 

[Andyzx]

You would have to be very unlucky for it to happen twice on consecutive flights. However I have heard another examples of this happening. I would talk to QF and the requst compensation. Also in the return fligh ask if you can confirm that you have secured the seats. I know you should have a confirmed seat but no harm in asking, especially if you can't get the confirmation you can come back via SIN on a QF or BA flight.

 

[Mal Ware]

I bought two business class seats on qantas to London via Bangkok. In Sydney we received the boarding passes for both sectors . When we arrived in Bangkok in business class lounge we were informed that we had been bumped from the flight despite having seating allocated in Sydney ( and being told their were spare seats beside us). The staff advised us that we were being reseated in premium economy and would receive 300 pounds (or 200 if we wanted cash.) We declined and requested our original allocated seats. The staff person with ba badge said that because our ticket was on special that we were chosen. Later she told us that it was because we had booked the tickets recently -purchased 2 months prior. We were swapped to Thai airways in business -no compensation- however I had chosen qantas because of the lie flat seating. What compensation is reasonable and what is the best way to get qantas to respond. I am also concerned that if I complain the same issue will occur on way home. Any feedback appreciated .

Tell them you want F on the way home.

Did they say why you were bumped, was it just over booked or did a couple of CL decide they wanted to travel?

How was Thai J class, do they not have lay down seats in Business?

 

[Pollie]

Thai was ok but the seats don't lie completely flat. You are on a steep slope. Food was like economy qantas. But service and attitude was nice. They just said that they had overbooked, but was surprised as we already had boarding pass for second leg. We were told at beginning of 5 hr layover in Bangkok. Will take your advice about F. Tks.

 

[markis10]

I bought two business class seats on qantas to London via Bangkok. In Sydney we received the boarding passes for both sectors . When we arrived in Bangkok in business class lounge we were informed that we had been bumped from the flight despite having seating allocated in Sydney ( and being told their were spare seats beside us). The staff advised us that we were being reseated in premium economy and would receive 300 pounds (or 200 if we wanted cash.) We declined and requested our original allocated seats. The staff person with ba badge said that because our ticket was on special that we were chosen. Later she told us that it was because we had booked the tickets recently -purchased 2 months prior. We were swapped to Thai airways in business -no compensation- however I had chosen qantas because of the lie flat seating. What compensation is reasonable and what is the best way to get qantas to respond. I am also concerned that if I complain the same issue will occur on way home. Any feedback appreciated .

When did this happen and which carrier was operating the BKK LHR leg, if it's BA then the following would apply:

Involuntary denied boarding: If an insufficient number of volunteers comes forward, and we deny you boarding against your will, we will immediately provide you with compensation amounting to EUR600 unless the Note at the end of this section on Denied Boarding applies to you, and also: Choice between: (i) reimbursement* within 7 days of the full cost of your ticket, at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to your original travel plan, together with, when relevant, a return flight to the first point of departure on your ticket, at the earliest opportunity; or (ii) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to your final destination^, at the earliest opportunity; or(iii)re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to your final destination^ at a later date at your convenience, subject to availability of seats. Assistance: And we will offer you free of charge: (a) meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to the waiting time; (b) hotel accommodation in cases: - where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary; or - where a stay additional to that intended by you becomes necessary; (c) transport between the airport and place of accommodation (hotel or other); and(d) two telephone calls, telex or fax message, or e-mails. Note: If we offer you an alternative flight to your final destination under comparable transport conditions, the arrival time of which does not exceed your original scheduled arrival time by four hours or more, we may reduce the compensation by 50% (ie. EUR300)

 

[oz_mark]

Reads to me as though the situation was actually an involuntary downgrade. The compensation rules are a bit different, and I am not sure how accepting a flight on a comparable carrier would affect any compensation under EU rules.

 

[drewbles]

Note:
If we offer you an alternative flight to your final destination under comparable transport conditions, the arrival time of which does not exceed your original scheduled arrival time by four hours or more, we may reduce the compensation by 50% (ie. EUR300)

This is what the OP was offered, in line with EU Regulations.

The OP was not 'denied boarding' per say as they were downgraded. Involuntary downgrade is not the same as being involuntarily denied boarding.

 

[markis10]

I wonder if its still a case of denied boarding, if the downgrade was taken, then 75% of the airfare needed to be refunded.

 

[anat0l]

I wonder if its still a case of denied boarding, if the downgrade was taken, then 75% of the airfare needed to be refunded.

The way I was reading it, this may apply, but see below.

I'm assuming that Pollie booked this ticket from Sydney to London via Bangkok on the Qantas website, with Sydney to Bangkok flying Qantas, and Bangkok to London flying British Airways. (Interestingly enough, Pollie said that the ticket was booked with Qantas to get lie flat seating, which is what was received on Sydney to Bangkok presumably, viz. a A330-300 with Skybed Mk I, sloped but flat seating, very similar to Thai Airways Business Class. On the other hand, British Airways Club World from Bangkok to London would've been fully flat horizontal seating).

EU regulation 261 is definitely applicable here as it is a valid ticket and reservation, and the operating carrier is an EU Community Carrier (British Airways). Even though British Airways has no "direct contract" with Pollie (i.e. the ticket was purchased from Qantas), under the obligations of the regulation, since it is the operating carrier fulfilling this part of the contract on behalf of Qantas, it is just as liable.

The way I see it is that Pollie was involuntarily downgraded (in fact, it doesn't matter here how they were downgraded), and also then involuntarily denied boarding (however, since an alternative equivalent class of travel was sought, that perhaps eliminates the liability of downgrading). I'd also assume that the Thai Airways flight they were accommodated on would've been similarly scheduled to the British Airways flight, and thus would easily arrive within 3 hours of the original flight.

So the net position I see here:

• Qantas (ticket seller, original contract): No liability.
• British Airways (operating carrier in question): Liability under EU 261/2004, under the provision of involuntary denied boarding, which entitles Pollie to:
  • Cash compensation: Type 3 flight amounting to EU 600, but this is halved if the Thai Airways flight is scheduled to arrive within 3 hours of the British Airways originally scheduled flight. So that's EUR 300 (AUD 374, or GBP 242, using today's exchange rate).
  • Rerouting / refunding: not applicable because Pollie didn't change any routings.
  • Care compensation: If Pollie bought any refreshments whilst waiting for the Thai Airways flight (possibly because they had no access to a lounge which they normally would have by flying British Airways), the retained receipts could be applied for reimbursement.

It probably doesn't make up for Pollie missing out on the product desired, but that said it would've been easier to have known of EU 261/2004 rights in the first place and exercised them at the time to get a better deal out of British Airways.

Long story short - apply to British Airways to get some compensation under EU 261/2004. If they refuse, then this could get complicated.


I know some people will say Qantas has some supreme liability or compensation due to Pollie because as the ticket seller, they need to take ultimate responsibility for all flights, irrespective of who operated them. I don't buy this argument, particularly when one of the operators anyway has statutory compensation obligations.

 

[spudseamus]

I thought we were talking about Tiger Airways!! --Im leaving for Ireland in 9 days and its things like this that makes me happy NOT to fly code share!!

 

[TonyHancock]

This is a harsh reminder of the perils of codeshare arrangements. I'd be feeling a little aggrieved that I have to take the issue up with BA, I believe I should be dealing with the company from whom I purchased the ticket, but I guess the rules are the rules.

 

[simongr]

I thought we were talking about Tiger Airways!! --Im leaving for Ireland in 9 days and its things like this that makes me happy NOT to fly code share!!

Where does it say in this that a codeshare was involved?

 

[simongr]

This is a harsh reminder of the perils of codeshare arrangements. I'd be feeling a little aggrieved that I have to take the issue up with BA, I believe I should be dealing with the company from whom I purchased the ticket, but I guess the rules are the rules.

If you bought the tickets from Flight Centre would you go to them for compensation? I just don't get this reasoning.

 

[markis10]

Where does it say in this that a codeshare was involved?

Pretty hard to fly BKK to LHR with QF metal for the last 6 months.

 

[TonyHancock]

If you bought the tickets from Flight Centre would you go to them for compensation? I just don't get this reasoning.

I didn't realise Flight Centre operated flights?

So by your argument if you source your broadband through aaNet you would directly approach Telstra* if there was a problem?

*Just waiting for someone to tell me aanet, or whatever they currently trade as, uses Optus infrastructure!!

 

[anat0l]

This is a harsh reminder of the perils of codeshare arrangements. I'd be feeling a little aggrieved that I have to take the issue up with BA, I believe I should be dealing with the company from whom I purchased the ticket, but I guess the rules are the rules.

The problem is that it is not directly the ticket seller's fault (if at all) for the predicament.

You could argue the same of that old man who died on the AF flight from CDG-SIN because AF wouldn't fix an air conditioning problem. He purchased that ticket from QF under the codeshare agreement. Should QF be implicated in the manslaughter of this man? I think not.


As I said, it is unfortunate but it would've been much easier to deal with this problem when it happened, at Bangkok, particularly as it was BA's fault and they were (albeit like the passenger) on the proverbial ropes.

Ironically, had the OP 'accepted' the downgrade, under EU 261 the compensation due should be much more than GBP 300 (I doubt a ticket between BKK and LHR in J one-way costs only GBP 400!).

You could chase QF about this but they will do nothing because they precisely cannot. Anything they "do" will be purely goodwill, but that doesn't address the problem at the root cause.

Where does it say in this that a codeshare was involved?

Unless this flight was booked long, long ago, the only way the OP could travel from SYD to LHR via BKK is via QF metal to BKK then onwards with a BA operated, QF codeshare flight (or, it could just be the BA flight number, too).

 

[markis10]

If you bought the tickets from Flight Centre would you go to them for compensation? I just don't get this reasoning.

Under consumer laws for most states, your contract exists with the seller not the actual service provider. So you should go to Flight Centre if you dont get what you paid for, who would chase it up with the services provider they act as an agent for. QF actually have published policies and procedures for agents in this instance.

 

[anat0l]

Under consumer laws for most states, your contract exists with the seller not the actual service provider. So you should go to Flight Centre if you dont get what you paid for, who would chase it up with the services provider they act as an agent for. QF actually have published policies and procedures for agents in this instance.

How does that exactly work for codeshares?

I can understand for TAs that kind of sense. Another example would be if someone went to the VA website and purchased a VA coded flight operated by EY. If something happened on EY, like being downgraded, who do you go after? My gut would've told me EY - they were the ones who failed to deliver, they have already collected the part revenue from VA (who have sold a seat for them); the only exception I could see is if VA messed up the passenger's details and contract provided to EY somehow.

Maybe it's just me but my gut almost always tells me to go after the operating carrier first.

 

[TonyHancock]

The problem is that it is not directly the ticket seller's fault (if at all) for the predicament.

You could argue the same of that old man who died on the AF flight from CDG-SIN because AF wouldn't fix an air conditioning problem. He purchased that ticket from QF under the codeshare agreement. Should QF be implicated in the manslaughter of this man? I think not.

QF should absolutely be liable for letting some poor unfortunate buy a ticket from them to fly on AF!!!!!*

As I said, it is unfortunate but it would've been much easier to deal with this problem when it happened, at Bangkok, particularly as it was BA's fault and they were (albeit like the passenger) on the proverbial ropes.

Ironically, had the OP 'accepted' the downgrade, under EU 261 the compensation due should be much more than GBP 300 (I doubt a ticket between BKK and LHR in J one-way costs only GBP 400!).

You could chase QF about this but they will do nothing because they precisely cannot. Anything they "do" will be purely goodwill, but that doesn't address the problem at the root cause.

I accept my view is simplistic and probably not overly realistic but I guess in general commercial terms I'm just used to paying one business for something and don't expect to have to deal with a sub supplier if things go wrong. Unrealistic, I guess, in the world of commercial air travel..but I can dream!!

* The poster would, almost, like to apologise for yet another dig at the French.

 

[dajop]

Just a completely random thought, unrelated to topic of compensation, but 1) Did you get FF points/status credits per original routing, if not you need to ensure you claim these as a minimum as per original ticketed flights 2) if you are a star alliance member somewhere, you probably can double dip and get your TG flight credited by sending in boarding pass, as this would be unrelated to any QF pts you earn.

Thorny question, at least they got you there, in business class and I assume more or less at the same time. Some other airlines pull the stunt on their own metal, you may expect fully flat and end up in angled flat, or even worse old style cradle seats (TG and SQ are the most common perpetrators, although not completely unheard of on QF in exceptional circumstances), and never really provide any compensation for this. You got there safely, and in business class, albeit a little disappointed and probably with a less restful sleep. Many a tale are much worse than this.