Qantas are to enforce the 4 segment rule for status!

[d15.in.oz]

Some people have companies which are quite prepared to pay for KUP and YUP fares when flexibility is needed...

I thought that more often than not, these fares are more restrictive than a full Y.

Your multiple short sector analysis seems logical, and relevant to AA's high value EXPs.

 

[Dave Noble]

I thought that more often than not, these fares are more restrictive than a full Y.

They are more restrictive than full Y ( but are cheaper than full Y ) but allow free changes , don't tend to have min stay requirements and the YUPs are refundable; the main issue that if having to make a change, if the upgraded inventory is unavailable they do, iirc, rebook into Y (for YUPs) or K (for KUPs)

Dave

 

[d15.in.oz]

So, a quick comparison of AA’s booking codes provides the following responses on STL-ORD (just to continue with your example) –

• Request an unrestricted First Class – produces a KUPP fare
• Request restricted First Class – produces the same KUPP fare
• Request a full fare Economy – produces the same KUPP fares
• Request an unrestricted Economy – produces an L class fare (less than half the price of the KUPP)
• Request a restricted Economy – produces a N or Q class fare (less than half the price of the L class)

So, it would seem hard to purchase a full fare Economy (let alone an unrestricted First Class fare) using AA.com –

And yet, seatcounter.com shows availability as – A7 B7 F7 G7 H7 K7 L7 M7 N- O7 P7 Q- S7 V7 W7 Y7

So if full Economy doesn’t really exist on AA routes like this, perhaps it is now just tactics to yield manage passengers into paying for First Class? In which case, EXP “free upgrades confirmed at purchase” on these routes have effectively disappeared as a privilege, making it even more likely for many AAdvantage members to divert some earning to QFF.

Hence a QFF response.

 

[Dave Noble]

YUP and KUP fares are a simple technique by AA to offer a discount 1st class ticket but market it as an economy ticket so that it meets many companies policy of only paying for an economy ticket. With a KUP/YUP you can fly 1st class but not breach economy ticket policy


Dave

 

[serfty]

... And yet, seatcounter.com shows availability as – A7 B7 F7 G7 H7 K7 L7 M7 N- O7 P7 Q- S7 V7 W7 Y7 ...

E/F Shows this for a flight I have a YUP on F5 P0 A0 Y7 B7 H7 K7 G7 L7 M7 W7 S7 V7 N7 Q0 O0. (This booked into P class and was showing P7 before and after booking).

Note that Y is indeed showing for this HNL-LAX flight.

 

[leny]

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but does a JetSaver fare on JetStar where you do not earn any points, but still register your QFF membership number count as an eligible flight?

Kind of like not having to pay annual membership fees with Air New zealand when you take their cheapest flight and don't get points for it, but the membership fee is still waived....

 

[Dave Noble]

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but does a JetSaver fare on JetStar where you do not earn any points, but still register your QFF membership number count as an eligible flight?

Only points earning flights count towards the eligable flight count

Dave

 

[d15.in.oz]

YUP and KUP fares are a simple technique by AA...

I am not so sure how simple they are. The more I think about it, the more I see is an ingenious system designed to -

• start yield managing people onto higher fares
• ween people off free upgrades
• not upset top status level FFs with “enhancements”, that obviously reduce benefits.
• Deal with competitors' positions.

And it is a strategy that doesn’t involve a Y+ physical product, or more room through coach!

It appears to aim at getting more people to pay for, and fly “Premium” Class.

• Introduce the YUPP (i.e. Y up to P), price it at the same level as Y, and sell it to anyone asking for Y. Purpose-
  • Condition EXPs into paying for their P seat (semantically - not getting a “free” upgrade)
  • Convert competitor’s customers paying for Y, and only getting Y+
  • Yield manage mid-range Economy customers into paying a bit more, and getting First Class.
  • Keep Economy product expectations low, (e.g. no pillow, no free feed, no service) to enhance the perception of First Class difference, while keeping prices/costs low against competitors who stay the middle ground.
  • Keep showing Y as available in booking systems; just sell it into P until…
• Balance this process against expected yields from true F; you don’t want to sell an F seat as P if you can help it.
  • Introduce 3 class domestic service, on sectors where significant cannibalisation may occur. (i.e. Upgrade “real” F passengers to “true” F)
  • At some point during the selling period, remove P seat availability if F is likely to sell on/out, and wear the cost of upgrading any remaining EXPs (for now).
  • On other routes that won’t sell out in P, take a reduction in profit from the few potential F passengers (by selling them into P), so as to not annoy them by comparatively over-charging.
• Change the fare to a KUPP, so people become use to K class, and you don’t destroy the physiological perceptions of the letter Y for the future.
• Next step is to remove the EXP privilege of free upgrade from Y/B (after all most of these EXPs will now be paying to travel in P).
• Start increasing the price of P
• Stop P altogether, and sell into F

…the strategy continues with other types of upgrades, but you get the idea…& QFF doesn't want to have to pick up the bar tab of any fall out.

 

[JohnK]

In my humble opinion only having to fly 4 QF sectors in a membership year to retain a high status is very lenient.

I would feel like 16+ sectors would be more appropriate. Don't like it then join AA, BA, AY, CX, IB, LA and see how easy it is to attain OW Emerald.

 

[Keith009]

In my humble opinion only having to fly 4 QF sectors in a membership year to retain a high status is very lenient.

I would feel like 16+ sectors would be more appropriate.

That defeats the purpose of FFP integration which is a key element of an airline alliance. Having said that I think the min 4 segments on own-metal rule is very reasonable as it costs money to run an FFP, but yet allows members the choice to structure their flying pattern more broadly.

However there ought to be sufficient notice. An 'effective 27th March 2007' on top of the T&Cs and the flight tracker on the online statement are simply not good enough. Such an abrupt change represents a raw deal for members whose re/qualification anniversaries are up soon.

I'd have requalified under the new enforcement due to my flights to CBR and the fact that QF is one of my preferred airlines in oneworld, but I've seen the light and am happily with AAdvantage.

 

[JohnK]

That defeats the purpose of FFP integration which is a key element of an airline alliance.

Yes and no. Sometimes my thinking is a little harsh but it was just my thoughts. I think at this stage I will have to disagree with you.

There should not be a single person in this world that should have OneWorld Sapphire status just by doing a single trip once a year SYD-SIN-LHR-SIN-SYD after undertaking a Mickey Mouse challenge.

Please lets have some decorum back into FFing.

 

[Keith009]

There should not be a single person in this world that should have OneWorld Sapphire status just by doing a single trip once a year SYD-SIN-LHR-SIN-SYD after undertaking a Mickey Mouse challenge.

I don't see how the amount of flying one does is relevant to the main issue here - how much of that flying must be done on the 'host carrier' of the relevant FFP.

And anyway your example is no longer possible for the lack-of-chAAllenge unless you can find AA codes somewhere on the itinerary and all of them total up to 10k EQP.

 

[NM]

There should not be a single person in this world that should have OneWorld Sapphire status just by doing a single trip once a year SYD-SIN-LHR-SIN-SYD after undertaking a Mickey Mouse challenge.

Anyone can do that. Just purchase a QF F ticket for that route and you earn 840 SCs, more than enough for OneWorld Sapphire. Then each subsequent year a J ticket for the same will earn 560 SCs, almost enough to retain Sapphire. Are you implying that such a person does not deserve to have Sapphire status? In my opinion, such a person meets the "challenge" of obtaining the required number of Status Credits and hence is just as deserving of the status as someone who earns their quota of status credits through 35 discount economy SYD-MEL-SYD flights. And Qantas probably made more profit from the London traveller.

It is my opinion that if someone meets the requirements of a program then they deserve the status. If one requirement is 4 sectors using the airline's own flight code then its simple - if you want the status make sure you meet the requirement. If they choose to waive some documented requirements, then that is a generous bonus.

 

[Keith009]

Anyone can do that.

Or a single trip via extremely well-planned DONE3s or DONE4s that yield SG or WP respectively.

 

[simongr]

There should not be a single person in this world that should have OneWorld Sapphire status just by doing a single trip once a year SYD-SIN-LHR-SIN-SYD after undertaking a Mickey Mouse challenge.

Please lets have some decorum back into FFing.

The challenge is just a status match that is harsher than many other airlines. If you are truly a FFer but are swicthing airlines then the challenge presents more of a requirement than othre airlines present. It has now been restricted to AA metal/codeshares so is not that easy still.

There are many UA status members that have never set foot on UA simply because the company they work for have required UA to give their employees status.

I think this requirement is a sledgehammer to crack a walnut but is probably the simplest tool that QF have to fix a particular problem.

I think the lack of notice is pretty poor. If you were a QF SG/WP overseas based with a March qualifying period this did not give you any time to "rectify" the problem.

 

[johnnyteoh]

This is my exact problem, I have booked the trip this weekend Syd-Mel to get my last 10SC for qualifying QF Gold, but I am now hit with this problem of min 4 segments and I have done 3. My next trip is 1/4/2007 but my qualifying period is 31/3/2007.

What are my options, beside that hate email I have send to QF. Not giving us enough forward warning and highlight of this T&C enforcement is outrageous. I felt like I am cheated to a great degree...looks like even though SQ's PPS benefit reduction, I will still try to re-qualify for that rather than trying for QF Plat in 2007.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

However there ought to be sufficient notice. An 'effective 27th March 2007' on top of the T&Cs and the flight tracker on the online statement are simply not good enough. Such an abrupt change represents a raw deal for members whose re/qualification anniversaries are up soon.

If it was a totally new rule I'd agree with you. But since the rule has been there for a while now, QF has given notice. Now if some people choose to assume the old lack of enforcement was always going to apply then that is too bad.

(Similarly with the requal for those only partly there - personally I do not assume that will continue to apply. If I am in a situation of needing a favour from QF to requalify and it happens, then I will be grateful, and if it doesn't I can't complain.)

 

[JohnK]

Anyone can do that. Just purchase a QF F ticket for that route and you earn 840 SCs, more than enough for OneWorld Sapphire.

Yes and spend well over A$10,000 on the F ticket.

I think you know what I meant. In the past you could spend A$1,500 on a ticket and you got OneWorld Sapphire status through the AA program with a simple SYD-SIN-LHR-SIN-SYD ticket. How would a person spending $10,000 feel about it? If I was spending money on F ticket I would really be disappointed.

To me Oneworld Sapphire is a high enough status without even considering Oneworld Emerald. I do not care which airline hands out the status it should be earned not given away.

I said it before and I will say it again. I would have made it at least 16 sectors on QF, each membership year, to be able to qualify for any sort of status. Am I wrong? Maybe, you decide! Someone will miss out? Tough!

Try to earn high status on IB, AY, LA, LH etc etc. From what I understand on AY you need at least 3 years of flying before you can even be eligible for Oneworld Emerald. Even better try to earn status on BA on economy airfares. Don't you need to travel Club level before you are invited to join BAEC?

Lets stop giving status away for nothing.

 

[Febs]

In the past you could spend A$1,500 on a ticket and you got OneWorld Sapphire status through the AA program with a simple SYD-SIN-LHR-SIN-SYD ticket. How would a person spending $10,000 feel about it?

A bit silly?

 

[JohnK]

The challenge is just a status match that is harsher than many other airlines.

Harsh? Sorry Simon but that is utter rubbish. I have read the AA thread as many times as you and there is/was nothing harsh about it. A carefully planned trip spending less than $2,000 per annum and you have instant OneWorld Sapphire status.

Yes so they have made it little harder now in that you cannot challenge 2 years in a row but it still way too easy.

I am all for people gaining every advantage possible for most things in life but handing top tier status in a FFP for little or not effort has to stop.

Anyway enough from me on this subject. YMMV.