"Qantas A380 grounded in Los Angeles"

[serfty]

"Qantas A380 grounded in Los Angeles" ... Well that's the headline

Peter Hawkins
January 27, 2009

A Qantas A380 has been grounded at Los Angeles airport, halting travel plans for almost 450 passengers bound for Sydney due to a minor technical issue.

Passengers on board the Nancy-Bird Walton, Qantas' first airbus were left waiting on the tarmac for over four hours last night due to low oil pressure in one of the engines. It is the first time one of Qantas' three A380 planes have been grounded.

"We've boarded passengers, [the captain has] started the engine and he's received an indication light in the coughpit of low oil pressure in one of the engines," a Qantas spokeswoman said.

QF12 from LAX to Sydney was due to depart at 10.30pm local time but is now due to leave about midday local time.

All passengers were taken on buses to two hotels and provided with accommodation.
...

 

[oz_mark]

One passenger on the plane said it left the terminal, but had to be towed back two hours later where they waited a further two hours
....
....
The Herald had a journalist on the flight.

So, was the journalist asleep and have to get info from passengers about what happened?

 

[hoops]

I was on this A380 – I was on the home leg of a round world Business Class fare that I do at least once a year and wanted to try the A380 – I can’t speak for the other classes but Business Class was not as good as that on a 747 – 400 – the onboard service was poor, the food average and the flat beds were the same as the old ones so, not as good as the ones in BA business Class. The A380 Business Class cabins were huge (I was in row 19, seat B) – I prefer to sit on the aisle but in Business Class on the A380 the stewardesses are constantly walking between the front and back galleys, the A380 aisle floor is very drummy so, I was constantly being woken by foot noise and the vibration of my seat being shaken as the slim stewardesses (they were not overweight) thundered past me all night. I felt more like the Cabin Crew had no idea of service and when I mentioned this feeling to a friend this morning they told me that a senior person in Qantas had told them that Qantas are not using their experienced cabin crew in Business Class on the A380 but, instead Qantas are using their Economy Cabin crew to service the A380 Business Class. This is exactly how it felt as there was none of the personal service you expect as normal from Qantas Business Class Crew.

I would avoid the A380 Business Class as much as possible and instead book the upper deck on a 747 – 400 where you have a 11 or 12 double seats with wide aisles.

 

[docjames]

Welcome to AFF hoops.

Wow, that's pretty scathing - the complete opposite to other reports on the A380.

Do you think it was related to the delay? I guess the only way to ever know would be to go again and find out, but I suspect you'll be trying to stay on 747s for now!

Out of interest, what were the other legs of the rtw / who with?

 

[dajop]

Iand the flat beds were the same as the old ones so,

They're not quite the same, they are completely flat whereas the old ones are angled lie flat. But take your point. I haven't been on the QF A380 yet, but one thing I think they missed was the opportunity for direct aisle access for all pax (on the flipside I guess, this maintains one point of differentation for F). The window passengers still need to climb out over the aisle pax, although not sure how difficult this is. I have had 3 flights in J on the SQ A380 and two great features of their seats are the aisle access for all passengers and the ability to slip out of your seat with the meal tray in place so you don't have to wait until end of the meal (or don't have to pack up laptop etc) to visit the toilets, etc.

I was constantly being woken by foot noise and the vibration of my seat being shaken as the slim stewardesses (they were not overweight) thundered past me all night

I've found this to be common on many aircraft types, although do note the upper deck of a 747 tends to have less foot traffic and less obtrusive. My complaint with recent SQ A380 was the serving of a contintental breakfast and associated clinking of cutlery, crockery and glassware 1.5hrs prior to landing whilst I was still trying to sleep, on the relatively short SIN-SYD sector.

Oh well we may well complain, but if you leap back in time only 7 years or so ... when cradle seats were the standard ......

 

[hoops]

Hi docjames,

I didn't mean it to be scathing, in fact I was holding back as I did not mention that trying to cram 450 people into a departure lounge with seating for 100 and effectively no room to move simply does not work. As anyone who fly’s the A380 from LA will find out, the 1st Class and Business Class lounge in LA is at the opposite end of the terminal to Qantas's A380 gate at 101 so, when the boarding call comes to the lounge to make your way to the gate you find that you arrive behind over 300 economy passengers crammed into a small space effectively blocking any priority passengers or families with children getting to the gate. Have you ever tried to push past 300 disgruntled economy passengers, many of whom are sitting on the floor? – it is often best to wait at the back of the lounge until the lounge clears which is not the priority service Business Class passengers pay their hard earned dollars to receive. To answer your question I flew on this trip:-

1) Qantas Airways flight 1 – Nonstop Sydney to Bangkok on a BOEING 747-400 – BUSINESS CLASS;
2) Royal Jordanian flight 181 - Nonstop Bangkok to Amman, Jordan on an AIRBUS INDUSTRIE A310-300 – BUSINESS CLASS;
3) Royal Jordanian flight 503 - Nonstop Amman, Jordan to Cairo on a EMBRAER 195 – BUSINESS CLASS;
4) British Airways flight 154 - Nonstop Cairo to London Heathrow on a BOEING 747-400 – CLUB CLASS;
5) British Airways flight 680 - Nonstop London Heathrow to Istanbul, Turkey on a AIRBUS INDUSTRIE A320-100/200 – CLUB CLASS;
6) IBERIA FLIGHT IB3759 – ISTANBUL to MADRID on a AIRBUS INDUSTRIE A320-100/200 – BUSINESS CLASS;
7) IBERIA FLIGHT IB8892- AIR NOSTRUM LAM SA- MADRID to RENNES/SAINT JACQUES on a CANADAIR REGIONAL;
8) British Airways flight 303 - Paris de Gaulle, France to London Heathrow on a AIRBUS INDUSTRIE A320-100/200 – CLUB CLASS;
9) BRITISH AIRWAYS FLIGHT BA 175 - LONDON/HEATHROW to NEW YORK/JOHN F KENNEDY on a BOEING 747-400 – CLUB CLASS;
10) American Airlines flight 1611 - Nonstop New York-Kennedy to Cancun, Mexico on a BOEING 757-200 – BUSINESS CLASS;
11) American Airlines flight 2244 - Cancun, Mexico to DALLAS FT WORTH on a BOEING 737-800 – BUSINESS CLASS;
12) AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT AA1587 - DALLAS/DALLAS FT WORTH to AUSTIN/ROBERT MUELLER on a MCDONNELL-DOUGLAS MD-80 – FIRST CLASS;
13) AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT AA 813 - AUSTIN/ROBERT MUELLER to LOS ANGELES on a MCDONNELL-DOUGLAS MD-80 – FIRST CLASS;
14) and then the QANTAS A380 – LAX to SYD – BUSINESS CLASS

I don’t know why you feel my experience is the complete opposite to other reports on the A380 other than to say that there has been a tremendous amount of hype generated by Qantas and Airbus about this plane to try and make it a PR success but, if you want a truly honest opinion then you have it in my posting as I have flown on many many carriers and the A380 is not worth a Business Class fare when compared with the experience we all know and expect on a Qantas of BA 747-400. There is a lot to sort out just with simple things as I mentioned above, the terminal departure lounges at LAX are not big enough for this plane and as a result the volume of economy class passengers block priority boarding. The Business Class cabin crew are not properly trained, the systems are not there and the experience is, when rated against BA and Qantas 747, very poor.

 

[turtlemichael]

Welcome Hoops. Most of your comments appear to relate to normal operation of the A380 particularly out of LAX. I'm interested to know how you think QF handled the situation the other night, particularly in keeping people informed, arranging the hotels etc ? I imagine that finding beds for 400 plus after midnight is not that easy, even in LA ?

 

[docjames]

Hi hoops - I wasnt being critical of your post, I think it's interesting we have a different view to that being sprouted everywhere else. That actually makes your contribution highly valuable and I appreciate you sharing it. As you point out, QF have gained heaps of (positive) publicity out the the A380 - perhaps reality is setting in and the crews are struggling to live up to the expectations of the passengers and the QF managers.

I'm sorry - again, wasnt having a go! I'll now read through your next post thoroughly to see who else you flew and how they compared!

Do you happen to know if the crew that operated the flight (eventually!) were the same crew that was originally scheduled, or was there a last minute change?

 

[serfty]

hoops, Welcome to AFF

FWIW, the TBIT lounge is close to the middle of the terminal; yes - gate 101 is the furthest gate from the lounge, but the other VLA gate at the opposite end (121) is a long way as well (about 20 metres less distance).

Having flown an A388 from TBIT I understand your comment about crowding; however I have known it to be nearly or just as bad with a 744! Wait until you have to use a "BUS" gate (e.g. 116).

What I am indicating is - the boarding problem is with the Terminal, not the A388 specifically.

The crew are generally new - I would not say "economy" however. They are employed by a different Qantas group entity. Generally, the older more experienced staff have decided to sick with the 744s.

Finally, I have seen a few reports about the "Barn Like" atmosphere of the J main area. Indications are it may be better to try to preallocate in rows 11, 12 or 13 rather than rows 16 thru 22.

IMHO your best bet is to voice your complaints to Qantas themselves.

 

[docjames]

hoops - that's a great intinery!

How did you find Iberia and Royal Jordanian as we've been looking at using them on an upcoming RTW.

And the whole LAX ground side of things sounds like a disaster. I presume you've been to LAX before - persoanlly I've never known it to be any different, and unless AA are prepared to force LAX to lift their game QF will always be stuck with a ground disaster there.

QF should be able to improve the in-flight component however!

 

[hoops]

Hi,

The original A380 crew and the aircraft were replaced with a another A380 and crew that I was told flew out of Melbourne.

OK, here is what happened not covered by my comments about the A380.

I arrived at LAX at 8:00 PM after taking my hire car back and made my way to the 1st Class Lounge for a departure at 10:45PM. We were called from the lounge to make our way to the gate at about 10:15PM and found the lounge overwhelmed with economy passengers. Finally, we boarded and pushed away only to be towed back to sit on the plane until 3:00 PM when we were off loaded and bussed to the Airport Westin being told we would be flying out at 12:00 noon. There were about 100 business class passengers in line to check-in and I was about 25 from the front. It took Westin 40 minutes to process the 25 passengers in front of me and give me my key – I don’t know how late the last passenger checked-in. I organised a wake-up call before going to bed at 4:30 for 9:00 am (4.5hours). Qantas over-rid it and woke everyone at 8:00 AM with their own wake up call and a not under the door saying departure would be at 11 AM. We were bussed to the airport at 9:30 AM and went straight to the gate where we were told the 11 am departure was now 12 noon. We were loaded onto the aircraft at 12:30 and taxied for 30 minutes on the ground before taking off at about 1:15PM which was 15 minutes before the departure deadline to beat the 11 PM Sydney curfew.

The captain on both planes (the original and the 2nd) talked to us regularly and kept us informed. I believe they did an extraordinary job in difficult circumstances and I have tried in my postings about my A380 Business Class experience to be completely balanced and not to allow what was a bad and frustrating experience to colour my review of the Business Class experience the A380 delivered compared to its rival being the Qantas or British Airways 747-400.

As to Iberia and Royal Jordanian, Iberia is not in the class of Qantas or BA and I would not fly with Iberia unless I had to because of the OneWorld ticketing. Unfortunately, I am continuely forced to fly with Iberia and I hate it. But, I like Royal Jordanian, I felt safe with them and I would fly with them again - they gave personal service and has really good security. Iberia on the other hand, is still inviting passangers to sit in the coughpit for takeoffs and landings, - as I said above, I would not lfly with them unless I had to.

 

[nlagalle]

. Iberia on the other hand, is still inviting passangers to sit in the coughpit for takeoffs and landings, - as I said above, I would not lfly with them unless I had to.

Personally i don't have a problem with that - It's one thing I sadly miss since 9/11. I spent hours on the flight deck over the years. And I know many pilots are disappointed they can't show off the plane - especially to kids. It wasn't an invitation to the flight deck that caused 9/11.

 

[dajop]

Iberia on the other hand, is still inviting passangers to sit in the coughpit for takeoffs and landings, - as I said above, I would not lfly with them unless I had to.

I've flown IB on some European sectors plus 2 long hauls (MAD-RIO & MAD-EZE) in the J cabin. On the longhauls didn't see the invites to the coughpit, but certainly did see pax (on both flights) ushered from Y to J after the door had closed, but before push back. Have not seen that happen on other airlines, usually only into the flight or towards the end.

 

[hoops]

It wasn't an invitation to the flight deck that caused 9/11.

Unfortunately I can't agree - we don't know exactly what happened on each individual plane because no one survived any of the hijacked planes.

 

[hoops]

I've flown IB on some European sectors plus 2 long hauls (MAD-RIO & MAD-EZE) in the J cabin.

As requested, I was directing my comments to Iberia where the 5 coughpit invites I have witnessed were all on Iberia long haul AIRBUS INDUSTRIE A320-100/200 and Boeing 747's plus they did not follow normal procedures to protect the coughpit open cabin door. Further, I found Iberia to have poor service, poorly trained cabin crew and if you want your bag to go missing or delayed then Iberia has, in my experience, the worst record.

I have nothing but good things to say about AIR NOSTRUM.

 

[nlagalle]

Unfortunately I can't agree - we don't know exactly what happened on each individual plane because no one survived any of the hijacked planes.

Perhaps we don't, however based on United 93, they didn't ask for a tour of the coughpit. Either way it's sad fact that something that was enjoyable to kids (and adults) has been taken away due to the fear of terrorism.

 

[simongr]

Interesting perspectives Hoops and it is great to get feedback on the A380 - good and bad. I am intrigued by the comments regarding BA/QF 747 vs. QF 380 J seats. One thing I am looking forward to with the A380 is the lie flat seats rather than the Skybed slopes - I dont quite understand your comment that seats are the same. they look similar I believe but there are some major differences in that they are flat and the screen is larger and set into the seat arm rather than the seat back in front.

In terms of security I see significantly different attitudes between AA and others - for example AA block off the aisles with food trolleys whilst they open the coughpit door - others no not and that does not make me feel and less safe or safer on AA.

 

[Chicken or Beef]

The Business Class cabin crew are not properly trained,

Of course the crew are 'properly' trained!

I believe QF made it possible for any existing aircrew to volunteer to be trained for service on the A380 - once trained, they become dedicated A380 crew.

What I think you will find is that most senior crew did not want to leave the flexibility of being able to choose from a range of routes as opposed to choosing between LAX and LHR. They may have also put them on different (cheaper) contracts.

Hence you may see younger (trimmer, as you pointed out) flight attendants who are trained 'properly' but will lack the experience that the older crew has. This is something that is not trainable but comes with age, confidence and life experiences.

 

[hoops]

Of course the crew are 'properly' trained!

I believe QF made it possible for any existing aircrew to volunteer to be trained for service on the A380 - once trained, they become dedicated A380 crew.

What I think you will find is that most senior crew did not want to leave the flexibility of being able to choose from a range of routes as opposed to choosing between LAX and LHR. They may have also put them on different (cheaper) contracts.

Hence you may see younger (trimmer, as you pointed out) flight attendants who are trained 'properly' but will lack the experience that the older crew has. This is something that is not trainable but comes with age, confidence and life experiences.

I say this of course with the greatest respect to you but, my review is that if you stump up your hard earned (after tax) $5,000 being the difference between a $6,500 Qantas Business Class seat on a A380 to the USA instead of $1,400 Economy seat then you will be qualified to write your own review as to wheather or not the A380 cabin crew are properly trained and wheather or not the A380 Business Class experience is worth all the PR hype it has received.

 

[hoops]

I am intrigued by the comments regarding BA/QF 747 vs. QF 380 J seats. One thing I am looking forward to with the A380 is the lie flat seats rather than the Skybed slopes - I dont quite understand your comment that seats are the same. they look similar I believe but there are some major differences in that they are flat and the screen is larger and set into the seat arm rather than the seat back in front.

I'm 6ft 1in, 55 years, old 86Kgs and I don't see the A380 seat as much of an improvement.

Certainly not worth all the hype and not a match for the British Airways - google search "BRITISH AIRWAYS CLUB WORLD BUSINESS CLASS SEAT REVIEW" and then look at the Qantas page on the same site Unfortunately, this site have not yet reviewed the Qantas A380 but this is what I am doing here.

Yes, the Qantas A380 seat is a little more flat but you still have that turned up foot rest at the end of the seat that cuts off circulation if you have it down and, if up, which at over 6ft, you have to push yourself right up into the shell (which is not flat) or curl up. Either way, the person next to you has to climb over you to get out to go to the toilet etc and then again to get back in – but, there is no room for them to stand if they have left their bed flat so they have to sort of jump to their seat usually kicking or bumping you in the meantime - plus the stewardess have to lean over you to serve meals and hot drinks to the window seat. Why do I have to put up with this when every BA Business Class seat has direct access to the aisle and where the seat has a jump seat style foot rest that gives a very long flat bed and a vertical position for your legs no matter the tilt of your seat? This is not the case on the A380 where you have to constantly fiddle with the controls every time you adjust the back. As to the flat / non flat bed issue - the bed does not need to lie flat with the floor to be flat -> because the A380 and 747's have to fly nose up so a slightly inclined bed is in fact flat.

Anyhow, my feeling is that the Qantas A380 is much over hyped and it has lots of issues and problems and simply does not offer a better experience than Qantas’s 747 Business Class – this is probably why the experienced Qantas Business Class cabin crew have elected to stay with the 747 fleet.

Each Qantas A380 costs $350 million so someone has to pay for it. My experience is that Qantas has lost an opportunity to provide a world class experience. Qantas instead purchased the cheaper Business Class seats, set them up all facing the same direction, employed staff under new contracts specifically for the A380 so the experienced (& more costly) staff don’t to work there, created a barn like Business Class cabin where stewardess are constantly having to run between galleys simply to achieve the bare minimum of service. All serviced out of gate lounges under designed for 480 passengers.

My view – don’t fly the Qantas A380 Business Class if you can fly Qantas 747 Business Class – or better still British Airways 747 Business Class with the superior Rearward/Forward facing configuration (in my opinion).