premium economy

[simongr]

So are they flying as paid whY+ or are these freebies?

 

[Shano]

So are they flying as paid whY+ or are these freebies?

Freebie UG's until the end of the month, probably for WP's and SG's.

Paid Y+ fares on sale for travel after April 1.

 

[NM]

Freebie UG's until the end of the month, probably for WP's and SG's.

Paid Y+ fares on sale for travel after April 1.

but only upgraded seats, not the soft product I assume.

 

[straitman]

but only upgraded seats, not the soft product I assume.

Sounds entirely reasonable to me.

 

[JohnK]

Also I am sure you have a good ratio of exit rows but that is not guaranteed.

I have 100% success rate requesting and keeping exit row seat on international flights.

As much as you pretty up the soft benefits of being a premium pax in a whY seat it is still a whY seat.

It is about as good as it is going to get for me. I want to be able to have 3-6 trips a year to Thailand on a limited budget and not have to fly a LCC so the best option for the time being is QF in WHY and all the associated benefits that go with status.

I agree with NM - the pricing seems logical if they have forgone twice as many seats then the price should be expected to be double. That obviously assumes similar loadings in PE and whY.

Logical to who? Qantas? Paying double the price for a Y+ seat does not sound logical to me whichever way the Qantas wants to spin it.

Oh and I can also see the logic in having a fuel surcharge and using the rise in the price of oil to increase airfares through the fuel surcharge....

 

[simongr]

Logical to who? Qantas? Paying double the price for a Y+ seat does not sound logical to me whichever way the Qantas wants to spin it.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Imagine a bus that seats 100 people each paying $1 each. To change the seats from Y to Y+ you now can only get 50 seats on board - thus to generate the same revenue you need to now charge $2.

Now to get the same profit is a completely different question. For a start there are the soft things - wine and food - is that twice as expensive. Irrespective of the opinion of the pony tailed one the food and booze is probably significantly more expensive.

Sure you can sell more freight and may use a fraction less fuel but your broad costs are likely to be fixed.

Now you may not value it at twice the value but all I am saying that from QF's perspective to maintain the revenue (monitored almost as much as the bottom line as it drves return on revenue) and profit it is logical for them to price as they do.

What I don't get is that you throw out this pricing as ridiculous as it does not fit your travel needs - well frankly the thought of three trips to Thailand in 10 years even if they were $1 would not be of any interest to me - evevn if used purely as a transit to somewhere else. Not everyone values things in the same way.

For some people this will fit very neatly inito their travel plans and will fill a niche for them - for others it might make the consideration of J in another carrier an option.

By your logic why are QF even offering F or J as you think the pricing of that is ridiculous?

 

[JohnK]

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Thanks for the economics lesson!

What I don't get is that you throw out this pricing as ridiculous as it does not fit your travel needs - well frankly the thought of three trips to Thailand in 10 years even if they were $1 would not be of any interest to me - evevn if used purely as a transit to somewhere else. Not everyone values things in the same way.

Lets not take into consideration what I think. Most people on this forum think the pricing set by QF for Y+ is ridiculous.

It is not my concern that in order to fit 32 premium economy seats QF had to pull out 60 WHY seats. All I will be getting is the reported 10 inches extra leg room and a meal that may well be worth $20 more than the WHY meal. How that is worth double the price of WHY is beyond my comprehension. And yes there will be people paying for Y+ and probably even upgrading to Y+ from WHY and they will think they are getting a great deal.

By your logic why are QF even offering F or J as you think the pricing of that is ridiculous?

Totally ridiculous when you consider that a return J ticket to London or Los Angeles is $12,000-$14,000! There would not be that many people paying this sort of price out of their own pocket.

Now time for me to go and let the experts on this forum decide what is a fair price to pay for airfares....

 

[freofan]

Qantas is a business, not a charity. As such they will price their product to be as commercially competitive as possible whilst generating as high a return possible on their investment.

Personally premium economy is an excellent option for me as someone who has paid for Business out of my own pocket on many occassions. In fact we are already booked to the UK in Premium economy the end of this year.

Customers will speak with their wallets, and judging by the reaction posted earlier (equivalent 250 loads sold already) it seems Qantas knows its market position better than any of us!

 

[Keith009]

Qantas is a business, not a charity. As such they will price their product to be as commercially competitive as possible whilst generating as high a return possible on their investment.

...
Customers will speak with their wallets, and judging by the reaction posted earlier (equivalent 250 loads sold already) it seems Qantas knows its market position better than any of us!

Well said!

I thought the points you raised were extremely valid, and I'd have thought so obvious that they don't need to be brought up. But from the tone of the discussions thus far I can see that even such fundamental points of economic fact have been lost on some of the participants in the debate. QF isn't a charity, and least of all - it is definitely not an apparatus of the government's welfare program.

For my personal economic circumstances, QF Y+ wouldn't be attractive price-wise as I think I find more value doing what I currently do, ie DONE4s from cheap locations. However that is a completely seperate issue to what the market will pay for and what is economically profitable for the airline. There is a market for Y+ seats and more importantly the market is willing to accept the kind of pricing that QF asks for. "Ridiculous?" Hardly, just sound business strategy!

 

[straitman]

Qantas is a business, not a charity. As such they will price their product to be as commercially competitive as possible whilst generating as high a return possible on their investment.

Personally premium economy is an excellent option for me as someone who has paid for Business out of my own pocket on many occassions. In fact we are already booked to the UK in Premium economy the end of this year.

Customers will speak with their wallets, and judging by the reaction posted earlier (equivalent 250 loads sold already) it seems Qantas knows its market position better than any of us!

freofan,

Thankyou and very well put.

Just because I do or don't like something or even do or don't find it appropriate does not mean it is or is not appropriate to the next person.

I prefer to travel in business and will plan my trips around this where possible. My justification level for picking business over economy is obviously different to JohnK which is neither right or wrong. It's just different.

The same logic will now apply for economy versus premium economy. At a personal level I believe premium economy to be expensive but if QF can sell their seats for a higher price then good on them.

 

[NM]

I believe QF will have no problems at all selling their premium economy seats at the prices they have set. There are many corporate travellers whose company travel policy does not extend to business or first class travel due to the 4+ times cost premium over flexible economy fares. I believe many of these companies will be willing to pay 2 times the economy fare for their staff to have an extra 10 inches of legroom and a better meal.

So Qantas seem to believe (and I agree) that they can make more money out of moving some of their corporate customers from economy fares to premium economy fares, rather than targeting leisure and holiday makers who are only willing to pay say a 50% premium.

Filling 60 seats with corporate travellers willing to pay 2X is going to make more money that selling 60 seats to leisure travellers willing to pay 1.5X the economy fare. They can always offer some discounted fares (read T class) when they don't expect to sell all 60 seats at rhe full W fare.

 

[oz_mark]

I think Premium Economy is filling the void created by business class adding newer and fancer features as the full service carriers compete rather aggressively in that area. To me, Premium Economy looks a bit like the business class of ten years ago, before the advent of sky beds and so on (and yes, I expect there will be those that disagree with this assessment, but so be it). This left a void that airlines like Qantas have begun to fill. I think they will do well.

 

[straitman]

I think Premium Economy is filling the void created by business class adding newer and fancer features as the full service carriers compete rather aggressively in that area. To me, Premium Economy looks a bit like the business class of ten years ago, before the advent of sky beds and so on (and yes, I expect there will be those that disagree with this assessment, but so be it). This left a void that airlines like Qantas have begun to fill. I think they will do well.

I agree.

 

[NM]

I think Premium Economy is filling the void created by business class adding newer and fancer features as the full service carriers compete rather aggressively in that area. To me, Premium Economy looks a bit like the business class of ten years ago, before the advent of sky beds and so on (and yes, I expect there will be those that disagree with this assessment, but so be it). This left a void that airlines like Qantas have begun to fill. I think they will do well.

I totally agree with your assessment. Its a cyclic process. We see the premium cabins upgrade to the point of silliness and unaffordable pricing, while the less premium cabins improve to fill the gap. Y+ is indeed similar to the business class product of 10-15+ years ago , and in some ways is better with the inclusion of AVOD.

 

[trooper]

Obviously I can have no experience of QF's Y+... but I have flown in NZ's Y+ several times and.. from MY perspective only (YMMV!!) it is an expensive - but justifiable use of MY money...

42" pitch. Wider seat. Business "lite" food/drinks service.. and very good service IME. Deeper recline. Side storage... (Please note I book ONLY on 744 operated flights - and choose my seats carefully as many do... the NZ 772 Y+ is nowhere near as good IMO)

When I first started buying these fares they came at about a 60% cost premium... that has now gone to 80% over discount Y and so is a bit more painful.. but NZ sell just about every Y+ seat they have on every flight.. hard to argue with success.... I suspect QF will experience the same... interesting also that they are fitting a decent number of these seats from the start... perhaps NZ's experience of TWICE having to add more Y+ seating to even come close to meeting demand has been an object lesson? (And NZ still needs more capacity in Y+!)

For me now as NZ Gold that other factor also comes into play.... Upgrading!Y+ to Business Premier is difficult to get.. but not impossible (got the UG Monday night LAX-AKL as a matter of fact...).. and if it doesn't clear.. well.. Y+ is a pretty nice consolation prize!:mrgreen:

I find it interesting to hear arguments that Y+ is not worth 2 x Y... fair enough in a way... except that one wonders then how paying 6 (7?) X Y for Business can be logically justified....

 

[docjames]

Remember also that less seats in Y means less having to be sold at deep discount in order to fill the aircraft, so should result in better profit per seat in the Y cabin also.

Want a cheap seat --> Jestar.

 

[JohnK]

I find it interesting to hear arguments that Y+ is not worth 2 x Y... fair enough in a way... except that one wonders then how paying 6 (7?) X Y for Business can be logically justified....

I cannot justify premium economy pricing let alone business class pricing.

It is easy to justify something when spending someone elses money. The best excuse is I need to go to New York for a week and I need to be on the ground running so business class is the only option for me. Rubbish! Save $10,000 on the airfare and have a day off work the day before and day after and you still achieve the same result. Do the words selfish or I am better than you have any meaning?

I have been the most outspoken against QFs premium economy pricing structure. Some people have been having a go at me and fair enough. This new premium economy product will appeal to some people and more than likely will be very successful. Good luck to them as there are people prepared to pay a premium for a fraction more comfort. Not worth it but that is only my opinion.

I am off to Thailand again in a few days and I have purchased a return BA world traveller plus airfare from SIN-SYD for travel 30 March and returning 16 June. Why SIN? I like to spend a day in SIN occasionally and there are cheap airfares from BKK-SIN on a number of carriers.

The BA WT+ airfare was SG$1615 or ~A$1300. The same airfare for QF WHY was SG$1103 or ~A$890. So I am prepared to pay a A$410 premium, or 46%, to travel in BA premium economy.

Now if I had decided to return on 1 April rather than 30 March the airfare increases to SG$2181 or ~$1760 which is 35% more than the airfare I paid and a whopping 98% premium on the QF WHY airfare. Woah! Someone please tell me I am not crazy and this is an absolute joke. Can it really be worth that much more overnight? Sure the BA product may be a little outdated and QFs new product fantastic but someone is pulling my leg here. Apparently so because there are some cunning people who think this is great value and will try to get it past their corporate WHY policy. Great here we go again lets spend someone else money and who cares about anyone else.

Flame away or ignore me. There is no way anyone can convince me that this new product provides that much value for money. Give me the A$890 WHY product with exit row allocated anyday which will leave me more money to drink or increase my number of trips every year. Have fun and continue to pay the ridiculous prices that QF charges for their premium products....

 

[bambbbam2]

I think JohnK you are missing part of the reason. For some 'larger' folk, travelling in Y is extremely difficult. For those people, it is worth it to travel in Y+.

There was a gent on here some time ago who said when travelling to the UK with his mum, they would purchase an extra seat between them and make that the middle so they had 1.5 seats each.

IMO, I still think getting 2 seats is the better way to go - esp. when you earn 2x QFF points.

 

[Mal]

As I posted over @ Flyertalk:

In about a week, I'm flying on a flight which appears to have had PE installed (according to the seat map).

Was assigned a very far back row.

Called up Qantas to ask to be moved into my favourite seat which looked free. Seat map was strange and had some seats not appearing properly, but didn't think anything about it. Was told that it's reserved for a group booking, but they would try and request it.

Thought "Huh". Why would they block out front seats for a group? Then it dawned on me when I looked at the seat map properly. PE has been installed on that plane (according to the seat map).

No seats have been allocated at the moment in the PE section. I'll know in a little while if my 'application' for a PE seat has been approved

 

[serfty]

I think JohnK you are missing part of the reason. For some 'larger' folk, travelling in Y is extremely difficult. For those people, it is worth it to travel in Y+. ...

I agree with JohnK on this one; BA had WT+ available between Oz and SIN/BKK for less than $1.5k return. This until 1 April where the BA fare now skyrockets with Qantas' implementation of Y+. It has been suggested that this is due to the QF/BA JSA.

bambbbam2, the point is that those "'larger' folk" who travelled SEA/Oz were able to purchase WT+ at a reasonable premoium over WHY; this option no longer exists.

I have never travelled WT+; I did consider it on last years pricing - but will not even contemplate it now.

As a QF WP, I can get that exit row seat simply by booking a flight and requesting one.

No way known I'll fork out that much extra $$ for WT+; any upgrade requests I make will exclude the Y+ option. If I don't get that upgrade then my 46C seat is fine.

Here's an excerpt from my previous post here in this thread:

Since being a WP, the only times I have not received my Preallocated Exit row seat is when I have been upgraded.

The analogy is good, an aisle exit row seat has more space to the fore than your QF Y+ seat.

Laterally, there is a difference, as with food and soft product but not enough to warrant the 2 x additional expenditure.
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