Paying premium for flights out of Australia?

[NM]

The other thing to consider (especially with QF) is the fare class being offered ex Aus and ex SE Asia.

Typically ex Aus it will be Q or N class whereas ex SE Asia it will be V class. Yes I understand in QFF it doesn't matter.

if wanting to use QFF points to upgrade then it does matter. N or Q are not upgradable while V is upgradable.

 

[wandering_fred]

if wanting to use QFF points to upgrade then it does matter. N or Q are not upgradable while V is upgradable.

Good point. But then we should be comparing V class fares from the various starting points. In this case I think the differences will greatly increase. No prize for determining which direction I think the increase will favor.

Fred

 

[wilco]

It is this predatory and discriminatory pricing that I absolutely detest. Qantas have taken advantage of passengers for far too long, by overcharging for an inferior product and service. And they wonder why their market share is spiralling out of control.....

 

[Blackadder]

It is this predatory and discriminatory pricing that I absolutely detest. Qantas have taken advantage of passengers for far too long, by overcharging for an inferior product and service. And they wonder why their market share is spiralling out of control.....

Obviously still enough market share to justify the prices, nothing predatory pricing about it.
As for inferior product and service, well that view is rather subjective.

 

[oz_mark]

It is this predatory and discriminatory pricing that I absolutely detest. Qantas have taken advantage of passengers for far too long, by overcharging for an inferior product and service. And they wonder why their market share is spiralling out of control.....

I think they call it yield management

 

[straitman]

It is this predatory and discriminatory pricing that I absolutely detest. Qantas have taken advantage of passengers for far too long, by overcharging for an inferior product and service. And they wonder why their market share is spiralling out of control.....

Obviously still enough market share to justify the prices, nothing predatory pricing about it.
As for inferior product and service, well that view is rather subjective.

I think they call it yield management

Blackadder has it correct. They are doing what any company with half decent management should do and are charging what the market will tolerate. How good or bad the product is, is all part of that equation and it is indeed called Yield Management which wilco knows about.

 

[Jleno]

Maybe I shouldn't blame the govt.

I thought I'd investigate the differences in prices a little further. Again, choosing an outbound and return date in February, I decided to check SQ outbound from SIN to SYD and then reversed the destination.

SIN-SYD = SGD 897.70 which consists of
- fare - SGD 446
- govt taxes - SGD 156.70
- carrier surchage - SGD 295

SYD-SIN = AUD 967.02 (= SGD 1266.8). Applying fx rates, this consists of
- fare - SGD 759
- govt taxes - SGD 159
- carrier surcharge - SGD 350

So it seems govt taxes are the same, a slight increase in the carrier surcharge and the bulk of the higher price in the fare.

Digging a little further,
- the SIN-SYD return flight's carrier surcharge consists of (1) Airline Insurance and (2) Airline Fuel Surcharge
- the SYD-SIN returng fight's carrer surcharge consists of (1) Airline Insurance and (2) Airline Fuel Surcharge and (3) Airline Fuel and Insurance Surcharge (so yes, it does look like a little doubling up of the surcharges).

Why don't they just build these surcharges into the fare price? It's not like these costs are optional, and they all go to the airline.

 

[wilco]

Blackadder has it correct. They are doing what any company with half decent management should do and are charging what the market will tolerate. How good or bad the product is, is all part of that equation and it is indeed called Yield Management which wilco knows about.

Yes I do know all about it, but I disagree that it should be done to the level that QF do. There is a fine line between maximising revenue and ripping people off. In this day and age where consumers are more informed, this antiquated pricing structure really isnt viable, at least in the long term, and QF is only now realising this out as passengers abandon them in droves.

Back in the day, Qantas was a world leader, noted for its innovation and safety and really had one of the best reputations going around. But now it is an airline that is no longer at the forefront of anything. Its last major innovation was Business class all the way back in 1979 and since then it has merely followed others, and even then somewhat begrudgingly. Qantas charged and passengers paid a premium to fly on what was the worlds best and safest airline. Today, there is very little, if anything at all that sets Qantas apart from its competitors, but they still charge as if there was. NZ is whipping QF in almost every respect, from hard product to soft product to pricing to network and pretty much everything in between. And all this from an airline 1/10th the size.

Qantas can cough and moan all it wants, but it and it alone has allowed itself to get into this mess it now finds itself. Management have made extraordinarily bad decisions that have compounded over the years which have resulted in where Qantas is today. CX has been so successful because they give the customer what it wants at a fair price point that keeps people coming back or at least thinking about CX when they next book a trip. That is how they can sustain 20+ daily flights to HKG when QF can barely muster single dailies.
After ripping people off for years and years when they "could", and you only need took at the pacific fares that were the same as europe despite being 1/3 less distance, they now expect passengers to come running back to help rescue the ailing airline. For mine, and many others it seems, the horse has long bolted and only now is Qantas trying to shut the gate.

IMO the only thing keeping them in business is JQ and the pull of the FF program, which keeps people flying them despite the many and varied disadvantages (ie: backtracking to everywhere ex LHR). Those damn FF points and SC are like a drug that keep me flying OW despite the (IMO) extreme difficulty in redeeming them for something that tangible. Habits it seems, are hard to break.

If the FF program was cancelled tomorrow, how many of you would actually fly QF for your next international flights??
I doubt I would.

Sad end to what was the worlds greatest airline.

 

[serfty]

...

Back in the day, Qantas was a world leader, noted for its innovation and safety and really had one of the best reputations going around. ...

In spte of this, the pricing being discussed on this thread - "Back in the Day" - Qantas were still generally more expensive for booking ex Oz than they were ex <most of other places> back to Oz.

 

[wilco]

Maybe I shouldn't blame the govt.

I thought I'd investigate the differences in prices a little further. Again, choosing an outbound and return date in February, I decided to check SQ outbound from SIN to SYD and then reversed the destination.

SIN-SYD = SGD 897.70 which consists of
- fare - SGD 446
- govt taxes - SGD 156.70
- carrier surchage - SGD 295

SYD-SIN = AUD 967.02 (= SGD 1266.8). Applying fx rates, this consists of
- fare - SGD 759
- govt taxes - SGD 159
- carrier surcharge - SGD 350

So it seems govt taxes are the same, a slight increase in the carrier surcharge and the bulk of the higher price in the fare.

Digging a little further,
- the SIN-SYD return flight's carrier surcharge consists of (1) Airline Insurance and (2) Airline Fuel Surcharge
- the SYD-SIN returng fight's carrer surcharge consists of (1) Airline Insurance and (2) Airline Fuel Surcharge and (3) Airline Fuel and Insurance Surcharge (so yes, it does look like a little doubling up of the surcharges).

Why don't they just build these surcharges into the fare price? It's not like these costs are optional, and they all go to the airline.

There is a whole raft of reasons why everything cannot be incorporated into the base fare.

To the layman, all "surcharges" appear the same but they are not. There are taxes, fees and (sur)charges that are all accounted for in different ways and specified on your ticket by way of up to 600 different 2 letter codes depending on airline and the countries to which you are flying. Not all costs go to the airline. They are obviously collected by the airline, but many have to be on-paid to the various governments and so it is impossible to bundle them all together.

International travel involving Australia includes the following charges

AB: International Levy
QC: Passenger charge for CNS ( I think!!)
QK: Noise Levy (nternational)
QR: Passenger service charge (domestic)
UO: GST (for any domestic connections as no GST applies to International travel)
WG: Safety and security charge
WY: Passenger service charge (International)
YQ: Airlines own use
and
YR: Airlines own use

The YQ and YR taxes are for things like fuels surcharges.

When "fares" are constructed, you need to have flexibility within the fare for changes to things like fuel surcharges based on zones (distances) or however you wish to account for it. This way, you can keep your "fare" the same and just change the variables. Whilst it may appear complex, its actually easier than the alternative you suggest.

You can thank IATA for setting up this system that all signatory airlines MUST follow.

 

[wilco]

In spte of this, the pricing being discussed on this thread - "Back in the Day" - Qantas were still generally more expensive for booking ex Oz than they were ex <most of other places> back to Oz.

In which case it goes back to what blackadder posted about Qantas charging what it thinks the market will bear.
At the end of the day, IMO, their days of doing this are numbered and if they dont pull their heads out of the sand, then they will only continue to lose more market share until they drop below a certain point, below which, it is no longer economically sustainable to operate services.

I really wish QF all the best, as deep down I very much like the airline and what it stood for, as opposed to what it has since become. But from what I can see, its going to be a very long and bumpy ride, and im not sure they are going to come out of this mess unscathed.
Qantas need to make urgent and drastic changes that centre around the one thing they can control, and that is customer service.
IMO you are not serving your customers buy charging them 30% more than a reciprocal pax just because you "can". Passengers are very fickle and will fly with someone else if they feel that they have been taken advantage of. Qantas is in no position to be pi$$ing customers off. It should be fighting tooth and nail to not only keep the ones it has but to get more from other airlines by offering the best "value" product it can. IMO, QF offer the least value service on almost any sector that it competes and that is not good for long term viability. Just my 2p.....

 

[JohnK]

It is this predatory and discriminatory pricing that I absolutely detest. Qantas have taken advantage of passengers for far too long, by overcharging for an inferior product and service. And they wonder why their market share is spiralling out of control.....

To be fair it is not just Qantas that does it.

Try CX for starters. Book a BKK-SIN return business class flights on CX and then try to book a SIN-BKK return business class flight on CX with the same dates. The difference is almost unbelievable!

 

[Jleno]

In which case it goes back to what blackadder posted about Qantas charging what it thinks the market will bear.
At the end of the day, IMO, their days of doing this are numbered and if they dont pull their heads out of the sand, then they will only continue to lose more market share until they drop below a certain point, below which, it is no longer economically sustainable to operate services.

Are there any QANTAS branded travel bags I can buy now? Maybe in 30 years time, there'll be a Pan Am equivalent of QANTAS tv show!

And I do agree that it's not just QANTAS that does this (more expensive prices on ex Aus flights). After Wilco's explanation, maybe I can blame govt taxes again for those surcharges!

I'm not a fan of QANTAS particularly, but at the moment, they seem to have the best price for a 12 month return ticket out of SIN to SYD departing in April which none of the other airlines have at the moment. I have noticed though it's not possible to specify a return date post Nov 2012 online, so I'm going to have to check change fees carefully.

 

[wilco]

they seem to have the best price for a 12 month return ticket out of SIN to SYD departing in April which none of the other airlines have at the moment. I have noticed though it's not possible to specify a return date post Nov 2012 online, so I'm going to have to check change fees carefully.

This is the difficulty with any fare which generally is only available for the next 12 months. This means that if you book one for 12 months time, it doesn't leave you with any room for the return date. If you're lucky (meaning it depends on who you talk to), you can book the last return date possible with an exemption to date change later, within the fare conditions and the 12 month validity for no fee. However they will ask that you confirm the new date as soon as it becomes available.

Otherwise, try a O/W if they are reasonable.

 

[Dalescott]

I am looking to fly to UK next April, and got a fare from EK, CS, VA, all J. EK $8990, CS $4800, VA $6900, I also got others. But I also got the same from UK relatives, allowing for exchange rate using Travelex. I got, EK $4998 CS $4856, and VA $4942. Now anybodies Language this is outrages, I have also just had relatives over from UK left last Wednesday on EK (direct to Newcastle). They could not get over how expensive it was in Australia, in everyway. I agreed with them on this, as we were there March this year. When they asked FC in UK why it was so expensive, they were told that it was the only country in the world where Airlines were making real money, and that they were loosing money in Europe.
So we in Australia are SUBSIDIZING the rest of the world ???, I wonder.

 

[Jleno]

I am looking to fly to UK next April, and got a fare from EK, CS, VA, all J. EK $8990, CS $4800, VA $6900, I also got others. But I also got the same from UK relatives, allowing for exchange rate using Travelex. I got, EK $4998 CS $4856, and VA $4942. Now anybodies Language this is outrages, I have also just had relatives over from UK left last Wednesday on EK (direct to Newcastle). They could not get over how expensive it was in Australia, in everyway. I agreed with them on this, as we were there March this year. When they asked FC in UK why it was so expensive, they were told that it was the only country in the world where Airlines were making real money, and that they were loosing money in Europe.
So we in Australia are SUBSIDIZING the rest of the world ???, I wonder.

We are subsidising something, thats for sure. I'm always quite surprised at how the Australian consumer is able to afford the high cost of living nowadays (especially for those not lucky enough to be in the "boom" industries). I'm actually now looking to set up ways in which I can buy whatever I need online (and overseas) as much as possible, taking advantage of the sub AUD1,000 GST free for imports wherever possible.

But that's getting slightly off track. Going back to the gist of this thread, I'm now watching with curiousity how the new Scoot will be pricing their fares. My experience in Europe is that with the more "budget" airlines, there seems to be less differentiation in price between outbound locations. There is also usually no penalty for booking one way only flights (which there often is with the non-discount carriers). I know that SQ over the years seem to have become more and more the most expensive airline to fly and I would be very interested to see whether Scoot will take more business away from the other carriers or from SQ.

 

[wilco]

I'm now watching with curiousity how the new Scoot will be pricing their fares. My experience in Europe is that with the more "budget" airlines, there seems to be less differentiation in price between outbound locations. There is also usually no penalty for booking one way only flights (which there often is with the non-discount carriers). I know that SQ over the years seem to have become more and more the most expensive airline to fly and I would be very interested to see whether Scoot will take more business away from the other carriers or from SQ.

LCC's have in part become so successful because they give the consumer what they want, or at least the ability to pick and choose the "bits" that they want. Scoot will no doubt sell O/W fares but this can create immigration issues as most countries (unless your a citizen/resident) require you to have an outbound flight before they will "land" you. SQ may be expensive, but IMO, you get what you pay for, unlike QF which is also expensive but you dont!

I find it laughable that QF ( and other legacy carriers) have retained their antiquated practices and wonder how they came to be deep in the proverbial. The world has moved on, yet they still think that they can carry on as they did 20 years ago.

As Geoff Dixon famously quoted regarding JQ, "its better to cannibalise ones own traffic than to have someone else do it"

 

[Jeffrey O'Neill]

i expect the only way to stop the airlines price gougin us is to not to buy the tickets until the pricing drops.

Since ozzies are heading overseas at record numbers I doubt the airlines are going to stop squeezing the lemon till the last drop is gone.

 

[wilco]

Since ozzies are heading overseas at record numbers I doubt the airlines are going to stop squeezing the lemon till the last drop is gone.

Cos that does wonders for creating long term brand loyalty. Whats the saying... "you pay peanuts you get monkeys" Qantas is not paying peanuts but it is certainly getting monkeys

 

[Jeffrey O'Neill]

Cos that does wonders for creating long term brand loyalty. Whats the saying... "you pay peanuts you get monkeys" Qantas is not paying peanuts but it is certainly getting monkeys

Wilco

I would suggest the majority of airlines flying to Oz are ripping us off.

QF is prob the most notable of them.