Oneworld Classic Flight Reward Discussion - The Definitive Thread

[Oubline]

Hi all,

We have just booked a 280k J itinerary thanks to the tips from this thread, it's very exciting.

I didn't notice until now but one of the connections on Iberia (BCN-MAD-GRX) is tight, being a transfer in Madrid of 45 minutes, just at minimum connection time. Everything will be fine if the first plane's on time, and even if not there are later flights that afternoon to Granada that I assume IB would reaccommodate us on.

However, I know that the remainder of a ticket can ne cancelled if any flight along the way is missed. Does this rule apply if I misconnect at no fault of our own and take whatever alternate flight IB offers us?

I would change flights but can't really spare 10k after the 560k outlay we've just made!

Many thanks for your advice and experience.

 

[snabbu]

Oh ok great yes mine are short too and wasn't too fussed but thought I may be missing something.

One last question hopeing someone can assist. I had seats allocated on JL via Qantas on phone. I wasn't that happy with them and knew there were better via expertflyer. Then I managed to login to JL and actually change the seats. BUT the Qantas seats are still on the booking on Qantas and myflights. However when I log onto JL my new seats are there. Any clues? Thanks

Your JL seats will stick if you selected them via the JL site, even though they don't show up on QF.

 

[jxv]

You have two stopovers in MEL which is against the rules. To overcome this, you can buy a separate ticket AKL-MEL-AKL. You can then have your two stops in South America.

This is exactly where my confusion about stopovers and surface sectors is: I thought that the starting city of a surface sector counts as a stopover and the end city does not count as anything. Have I got that rule wrong, or is this different because the surface sector end city happens to be a place where I already had a stopover?

This should then work with only one stop left for South America:

MXP-LHR-HKG (stop 1) -MEL (stop 2)
MEL-AKL (stop 3)-SYD (stop 4)
(SYD-MEL-SYD on a separate ticket)
SYD-SCL-LIM (stop 5) -MAD-AMS (end, include mileage AMS-MXP)

If I do AKL-SYD as a surface sector (by flying AKL-MEL-SYD on a separate ticket), does SYD still count as stop 4? AKL and SYD would not both be counted as stops for a surface sector?

 

[Oubline]

I found it helpful to remember the rule: a stopover is any city that you land in and don't depart from within 24 hours (except for your final destination)

 

[Kangol]

This is exactly where my confusion about stopovers and surface sectors is: I thought that the starting city of a surface sector counts as a stopover and the end city does not count as anything. Have I got that rule wrong, or is this different because the surface sector end city happens to be a place where I already had a stopover?

This should then work with only one stop left for South America:

MXP-LHR-HKG (stop 1) -MEL (stop 2)
MEL-AKL (stop 3)-SYD (stop 4)
(SYD-MEL-SYD on a separate ticket)
SYD-SCL-LIM (stop 5) -MAD-AMS (end, include mileage AMS-MXP)

If I do AKL-SYD as a surface sector (by flying AKL-MEL-SYD on a separate ticket), does SYD still count as stop 4? AKL and SYD would not both be counted as stops for a surface sector?

The city the flight stops in is the stopover city. It doesn't matter where the next flight departs from, whether it be the same one or a different one due to a surface segment, because that has nothing to do with where the stopover is.

If you stop in AMS, that will be considered six stops and not allowed. If you actually wanted to visit AMS, some would suggest to book a MAD-xAMS-MXP flight and then no show the last leg. You would have to check if a nonstop AMS-MXP OW flight exists. If not, you might have to book say MAD-xAMS-xLHR-MXP and no show the last two legs. But I'm not suggesting you do that

 

[jxv]

The city the flight stops in is the stopover city. It doesn't matter where the next flight departs from, whether it be the same one or a different one due to a surface segment, because that has nothing to do with where the stopover is.

In my first post today I proposed an itinerary:

MXP-LHR (transit 1)-HKG (stop 1) -MEL (stop 2)
MEL-AKL (stop 3)-SYD (stop 4)
SYD-MEL (surfacesector)
MEL-SYD (transit 1)-SCL-LIM (stop 5) -MAD-AMS (end, include mileage AMS-MXP)

jetpack replied and suggested that it was invalid because I had two stopovers in MEL. The way you explain the rules seems to allow this itinerary. Or am I now totally confused?

If you stop in AMS, that will be considered six stops and not allowed. If you actually wanted to visit AMS, some would suggest to book a MAD-xAMS-MXP flight and then no show the last leg. You would have to check if a nonstop AMS-MXP OW flight exists. If not, you might have to book say MAD-xAMS-xLHR-MXP and no show the last two legs. But I'm not suggesting you do that

I studied many, many pages of this thread and I had concluded that the end point of the whole itinerary, if it is not the same as the starting point, is not considered to be a stopover. If I really can't end in AMS I would prefer to go -xMAD-MXP and buy a separate ticket to AMS or take the train and visit a few more places on the way.

 

[Captain Halliday]

In my first post today I proposed an itinerary:

MXP-LHR (transit 1)-HKG (stop 1) -MEL (stop 2)
MEL-AKL (stop 3)-SYD (stop 4)
SYD-MEL (surfacesector)
MEL-SYD (transit 1)-SCL-LIM (stop 5) -MAD-AMS (end, include mileage AMS-MXP)

jetpack replied and suggested that it was invalid because I had two stopovers in MEL. The way you explain the rules seems to allow this itinerary. Or am I now totally confused?



I studied many, many pages of this thread and I had concluded that the end point of the whole itinerary, if it is not the same as the starting point, is not considered to be a stopover. If I really can't end in AMS I would prefer to go -xMAD-MXP and buy a separate ticket to AMS or take the train and visit a few more places on the way.

That itin. is definetly two stops in MEL and therefore invalid for this Award type.

As robbegong, mentioned a couple of posts back, if you land in MEL a second time and do not FLY out of that airport within 24 hours, it is a stopover.

 

[jetpack]

This should then work with only one stop left for South America:

MXP-LHR-HKG (stop 1) -MEL (stop 2)
MEL-AKL (stop 3)-SYD (stop 4)
(SYD-MEL-SYD on a separate ticket)
SYD-SCL-LIM (stop 5) -MAD-AMS (end, include mileage AMS-MXP)

Looks ok to me.

If I do AKL-SYD as a surface sector (by flying AKL-MEL-SYD on a separate ticket), does SYD still count as stop 4? AKL and SYD would not both be counted as stops for a surface sector?

The AKL-SYD surface sector will be your 3rd stopover although both AKL and SYD will now be considered as stopover cities that you cannot stop over at again.

 

[Kangol]

The AKL-SYD surface sector will be your 3rd stopover although both AKL and SYD will now be considered as stopover cities that you cannot stop over at again.

Hmm, don't think that is right.
I have (and probably many others here) booked oneworld awards with 5 stopovers and a surface segment and the surface segment is not counted as a stopover. Otherwise it would go over 5 which would invalidate the award type.

 

[Kangol]

I studied many, many pages of this thread and I had concluded that the end point of the whole itinerary, if it is not the same as the starting point, is not considered to be a stopover. If I really can't end in AMS I would prefer to go -xMAD-MXP and buy a separate ticket to AMS or take the train and visit a few more places on the way.

Oops. Might have misread. I thought you had to consider the distance from where it finishes to the port of origin (if different) as part of the 35k mileage and as another segment, but you could just think of it as a surface segment at the end of the award.

What I do know is that the end point of a surface segment is not counted as 1 of your 5 stopovers - see my post above.

 

[Kangol]

See this post for confirmation that a surface segment is not counted as an extra stopover:
http://www.australianfrequentflyer....ward-140k-280k-420k-8228-440.html#post1556333

 

[Radio8tiv]

Thanks to the information in this thread Mrs jxv and I have completed our first 280k award in 2016 and now we are already planning the next one!

I am not sure that I fully understand the stopover/transit/surface sector rules and would like someone more experienced to confirm some scenarios.

Already booked forOctober 2017:
MXP-LHR (transit 1)-HKG (stop 1) -MEL (stop 2)

Around May 2018 we will return to Europe via the USA or South America. Depending on mileage remaining we intend to make a side trip to SIN or AKL in Feb 2018.

As an example, does this itinerary comply?
MEL-AKL (stop 3)-SYD (stop 4)
SYD-MEL (surface sector)

MEL-SYD (transit 1)-SCL-LIM (stop 5) -MAD-AMS (end, include mileage AMS-MXP)

I would prefer to have two stops in South America. Does this example work?
MEL-AKL (stop 3),
AKL-MEL (surface sector)

MEL-SYD-SCL (stop4)-LIM (stop 5) -LHR (transit 2) -AMS (end, include mileage AMS-MXP)

In other words: if these itineraries are valid, the fare difference between "surface sectors" AKL-MEL and SYD-MEL buys an extra stop on the way back to Europe.

Lets have a look this and see what we can come up with
example 1.
as you are making your own way into MEL for the second time on a surface segment I can't see why this would not be allowed, by definition 'Stopover' in relation to:
(b) for all other Itineraries, including those containing a domestic to international connecting flight, means when a passenger arrives at an intermediate point and is not scheduled to depart within 24 hours of arrival;
since you didn't arrive on a flight, this should not apply

SYD-MEL will be a surface segment and will count towards you total segments of 16 and distance of 35000miles

no problem finishing in AMS

example 2.

i don't see a problem again same as before

example 3 (suggestion)

instead of making MEL stop 2 maybe transit through BNE and stop in MEL on the way back
this will save on costs of surface segments too.
MXP-LHR-HKG (stop 1) -BNE (cx157)- AKL (stop 2)
AKL-MEL (stop 3)
MEL-SYD-SCL (stop 4)
SCL-LIM (stop 5)
LIM-MAD-AMS

also if you want to spend some time in SYD you could do the above but just make MEL-SYD as a surface segment, then depart from SYD when your ready to continue on to SCL, this won't affect the stop count or segment count, or distance.

i have not checked any flights for you though so not sure if the routing is available just giving a suggestion

 

[jxv]

Lets have a look this and see what we can come up with
example 1.
as you are making your own way into MEL for the second time on a surface segment I can't see why this would not be allowed, by definition 'Stopover' in relation to:
(b) for all other Itineraries, including those containing a domestic to international connecting flight, means when a passenger arrives at an intermediate point and is not scheduled to depart within 24 hours of arrival;
since you didn't arrive on a flight, this should not apply

SYD-MEL will be a surface segment and will count towards you total segments of 16 and distance of 35000miles

no problem finishing in AMS

example 2.

i don't see a problem again same as before

example 3 (suggestion)

instead of making MEL stop 2 maybe transit through BNE and stop in MEL on the way back
this will save on costs of surface segments too.
MXP-LHR-HKG (stop 1) -BNE (cx157)- AKL (stop 2)
AKL-MEL (stop 3)
MEL-SYD-SCL (stop 4)
SCL-LIM (stop 5)
LIM-MAD-AMS

also if you want to spend some time in SYD you could do the above but just make MEL-SYD as a surface segment, then depart from SYD when your ready to continue on to SCL, this won't affect the stop count or segment count, or distance.

i have not checked any flights for you though so not sure if the routing is available just giving a suggestion

Radio8tive, however much I like your analysis because it confirms my train of thought, I can't escape the fact that others think that there are two stopovers in MEL, making the itinerary invalid.

I have looked at the tickets for my previous OWA. I first booked:
LIS-xLHR-JNB (stop 1) -xSYD-MEL (stop 2).
Some months later I added: MEL-xHKG-xLHR-FRA (end)

Then I added a side-trip to SIN in the middle and at the same time the departure for the final trip was changed to BNE, on the same date:
LIS-xLHR-JNB (stop 1) -xSYD-MEL (stop 2)
MEL-SIN (stop 3) - SYD (stop 4)
(surface sector SYD-BNE)
BNE-xHKG-xLHR-FRA (end)

I can't exactly remember how this eventuated, but the only reason I can think of for letting go of the MEL-HKG flight would be that I was not allowed to fly out of MEL again. I do remember that SYD-HKG was not available and I settled for BNE-HKG.

If this is correct, should we phrase the surface sector rule as follows?
A Surface Sector counts as one Stopover and no further Stopovers are allowed in its arrival and departure cities.

About finishing the itinerary in a different city from its origin, I agree. Some of the itineraries discussed many pages back in this thread show to just add the miles back to the origin, there is no extra (surface) segment or stopover, it is The End.

 

[Radio8tiv]

Radio8tive, however much I like your analysis because it confirms my train of thought, I can't escape the fact that others think that there are two stopovers in MEL, making the itinerary invalid.

I have looked at the tickets for my previous OWA. I first booked:
LIS-xLHR-JNB (stop 1) -xSYD-MEL (stop 2).
Some months later I added: MEL-xHKG-xLHR-FRA (end)

Then I added a side-trip to SIN in the middle and at the same time the departure for the final trip was changed to BNE, on the same date:
LIS-xLHR-JNB (stop 1) -xSYD-MEL (stop 2)
MEL-SIN (stop 3) - SYD (stop 4)
(surface sector SYD-BNE)
BNE-xHKG-xLHR-FRA (end)

I can't exactly remember how this eventuated, but the only reason I can think of for letting go of the MEL-HKG flight would be that I was not allowed to fly out of MEL again. I do remember that SYD-HKG was not available and I settled for BNE-HKG.

If this is correct, should we phrase the surface sector rule as follows?
A Surface Sector counts as one Stopover and no further Stopovers are allowed in its arrival and departure cities.

About finishing the itinerary in a different city from its origin, I agree. Some of the itineraries discussed many pages back in this thread show to just add the miles back to the origin, there is no extra (surface) segment or stopover, it is The End.

Im no pro at this, I have only done my own 280k recently and still waiting 10 months to start.

I just read the rules and learnt from this forum, it's all a game really, I would call up (if you have plenty of points) and just try it, what is the worst that could happen....they say no can't be done. That is, if this is your ultimate itinerary, but looks like you still have a few options and haven't quite decided yet.

The wording on the surface segment and other rules on this forum are a direct quote from the Qantas T&Cs.

 

[jxv]

Thanks everyone for your comments. The best I can do is to try to book the itinerary with a surface sector to MEL and then fly out of there. If that doesn't fly (pun intended) I will have plan B ready!

 

[fairbasa]

Hey all,

So Finnair have cancelled my HEL-MIA service and bumped it a day. Booking is ticketed.

I'm not really happy about this and wanted to find out what my rights are? Are they the same as if they were on a revenue fare? Can I force them to fly me with BA via LHR?

I can't really afford the lost day.

 

[madrooster]

Hey all,

So Finnair have cancelled my HEL-MIA service and bumped it a day. Booking is ticketed.

I'm not really happy about this and wanted to find out what my rights are? Are they the same as if they were on a revenue fare? Can I force them to fly me with BA via LHR?

I can't really afford the lost day.

Yes you can assuming there's award seats available on BA. They will reissue it as an invol so you won't be subjected to the UK taxes either. If there's no award seats left it'll be up to QF to decide whether they will put you on commercial seat.

 

[grussellt]

Hey all,

So Finnair have cancelled my HEL-MIA service and bumped it a day. Booking is ticketed.

I'm not really happy about this and wanted to find out what my rights are? Are they the same as if they were on a revenue fare? Can I force them to fly me with BA via LHR?

I can't really afford the lost day.

Have you tried IB via MAD to MIA? OR AB via TXL OR AA via LHR?

 

[fairbasa]

Have you tried IB via MAD to MIA? OR AB via TXL OR AA via LHR?

No, I only just got the email, will have to investigate options.

MIA was just a long transit on the way to CUN. Ideally I'd like to stay with AY, perhaps via JFK, but if I have to I'll consider alternative carriers. IB and AB don't seem very appealing.

I'm sure this is as a result of Finnair's pilot shortage. They're wet leasing an IB A330 until June whilst they undertake A330 to A350 conversion training.

 

[Radio8tiv]

No, I only just got the email, will have to investigate options.

MIA was just a long transit on the way to CUN. Ideally I'd like to stay with AY, perhaps via JFK, but if I have to I'll consider alternative carriers. IB and AB don't seem very appealing.

I'm sure this is as a result of Finnair's pilot shortage. They're wet leasing an IB A330 until June whilst they undertake A330 to A350 conversion training.

I agree domestic on IB and AB look pretty ordinary, fairly sure AB has economy only flights too ( I had to use one for better schedule timing) but the AB7248 A330 TXL-JFK looks like a nice J product with 1-2-1 seating

looks like they do a direct to MIA also on the same plane AB7210