New security measures for Australia

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oz_mark

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simoninsingapore said:
And I'll let you into a little secret - I don't bother turning my mobile off during the flight either !

I'll let you in on something. I have been on a flight that has been affected by someones mobile, and there was a rather annoyed sounding announcement from the captain about it. So phones can affect planes.
 

serfty

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I'm with straitman, please advise you flights so I may avoid your powered up mobile and you, in that order. :rolleyes:
 

littl_flier

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I'm with straitman and serfty as well. I have forgotten to turn my phone off once but purposely leaving the phone on is stepping over the line. Sounds like you may live on the edge simoninsingapore.
 

JohnK

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It appears that someones brief entrance into AFF has been all guns blazing....
 

simoninsingapore

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Ha ha.

As I understand it, the reason why mobiles are asked to be turned off is that it causes havoc for the mobile phone companies - something to do with your phone picking up more than one beam and triangulation or something like that. More specifically, it causes havoc with the billing systems. Do you REALLY think that if it was a bona fide safety issue they would be so cavalier about it. How many people GENUINELY forget to turn their phones off on each flight do you think - 10% ? 20 % ?
Some of you guys are unbelievable ! So trusting of authority !
 

Dave Noble

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I would reply but I like to obey the sign that says "Please do not feed the Troll"

Dave
 

simoninsingapore

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A troll, lol. I quite like the imagery of a troll, although I'm quite tall and really lovely when you get to know me, ha ha
 

NYCguy

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simoninsingapore said:
Ha ha.


Some of you guys are unbelievable ! So trusting of authority !
And some of you are sooooo rebellious, seemingly just for the sake of being rebellious, that I wonder if you are still in high-school?

Civilised society relies on us following rules and regulations, otherwise anarchy and chaos may ensue. If you deliberately make the choice to leave your mobile in just because "the man" tells you to turn it off, you're neither a hero nor an antihero, you're an immature, petulant dimwit.
 

simoninsingapore

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NYCguy - I don't leave it on because I'm told to turn it off. I leave it on because it is on, and there is absolutely no evidence that turning it off serves any safety purpose, and it actually takes energy to turn it off, and also wastes the battery and the little on/off button, plus I forget. It's a lowkey kind of rebellion that doesn't really seek attention. I'm not the di**head business guy who keeps chatting into his mobile even after the third time the hostie has asked him to turn it off
- Immature - yeah a little bit
- Petulant - yeah, sometimes, expecially in airports and planes, funnily enough
- Dimwit - nah, there's a fair bit of evidence I'm not.
But two out of three ain't bad !
I would make the same point again, because noone seems to have absorbed it: there's a worrying and uncritical trusting of authority figures here, and the fact that I choose to be skeptical doesn't mean I think I'm a legend in my own lunchtime.
Does everyone on this site also get to the airport three hours before an international flight because that's what the "Important information" says ?? I mean, Christ on a bike !
 

simongr

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I dont - because I fly in J and don't have to. If I was in whY and having to queue behind masses of people - I probably would.

Here is an interesting rule for you. Seatbelts - do you use them? When in a car that is? By you not wearing them you dont endanger anyone else - so why bother with the rule? Is it becuse you think you will get caught?

And ha ha @ the wearing down of he on/off button - - classic - your phone must last forevere- I change mine every year or two so I am not overly concerned that one button might wear out...

Out of interest - given your 120+ flights a year how do the FAs react when your phone goes off or do you put it on silent? I mean i must go off reasonably frequently
 

straitman

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simoninsingapore said:
Ha ha.

As I understand it, the reason why mobiles are asked to be turned off is that it causes havoc for the mobile phone companies - something to do with your phone picking up more than one beam and triangulation or something like that. More specifically, it causes havoc with the billing systems. Do you REALLY think that if it was a bona fide safety issue they would be so cavalier about it. How many people GENUINELY forget to turn their phones off on each flight do you think - 10% ? 20 % ?
Some of you guys are unbelievable ! So trusting of authority !
simoninsing,

One last comment to the 'troll' from me. :evil:

As a professional pilot I am fully aware of the problems that may be caused by leaving mobile phones on. Potentially, it's downright dangerous :!:

Not just trusting of authority as it's a fact.

Need I say any more, because if you are so ignorant then nothing is going to sway you.

... and I do tend to get to the airport early but that's because the travel time from my home can often vary by up to 1.5 hrs. If I'm early so be it, I go and sit and have a laze around in the lounge as it's still better than missing the flight :!:
 

simoninsingapore

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simongr said:
I dont - because I fly in J and don't have to. If I was in whY and having to queue behind masses of people - I probably would.

Here is an interesting rule for you. Seatbelts - do you use them? When in a car that is? By you not wearing them you dont endanger anyone else - so why bother with the rule? Is it becuse you think you will get caught?

And ha ha @ the wearing down of he on/off button - - classic - your phone must last forevere- I change mine every year or two so I am not overly concerned that one button might wear out...

Out of interest - given your 120+ flights a year how do the FAs react when your phone goes off or do you put it on silent? I mean i must go off reasonably frequently

Well I ONLY travel in Y these days cos I'm on my own account and any frequent flyer would have the status to check in without having a gazillion people in front of them.

Seat belts is one of the more insightful examples you could have brought up because it has a bit of all the good stuff - particularly paternalistic laws and victimless crimes. Me ? I usually wear them on long trips, partly because I don't want to get caught, but mainly because I know it's probably good for me. Short trips I couldn't really give a stuff. Of course it's not really a victimless crime because if I need to be scraped off the road after a crash the taxpayer pays.

My phone going off ? It has a discreet ring tone, and I'm tremendously unpopular so noone ever calls me anyway, ha ha. I particularly dislike people with Hey Look At Me ringtones - it disturbs the peace. I never hear mine over the aircraft noise, and neither do my fellow travellers.

Change your phone every year or two ? Wow, I'm impressed. Actually I think I do also, I was using literary licence for effect. Let's have a competition ! What's your model !!!!

But I'm particularly interested in the evidence that our professional pilot points to about mobile phones. Can you be a bit more specific please ? I'm really intrigued
 
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Keith009

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simoninsingapore said:
...I'm tremendously unpopular so noone ever calls me anyway, ha ha.
Interesting... sounds like you've taken some time out to read the Walter Mitty books...

I think I'm going to *try* observing the "don't feed the troll" sign. ;)
 

yo yo ma

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simoninsingapore said:
I leave it on because it is on, and there is absolutely no evidence that turning it off serves any safety purpose...
Maybe you should rephrase the "absolutely no"... A quick google search gives a plethora of references. I will give you 2 to start off with;) I have a heap more but will use them after your counter!
reference 1 said:
IEEE Spectrum: Unsafe At Any Airspeed?
Bill Strauss is an expert in aircraft electromagnetic compatibility at the Naval Air Warfare Center and is the technical activities committee chairman for the IEEE Electromagnetic Compatibility Society. He recently completed his Ph.D. on this topic in the department of engineering and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University, in Pittsburgh. M. Granger Morgan (IEEE Fellow) is head of Carnegie Mellon's department of engineering and public policy and a professor in the department of electrical and computer engineering. JAY APT is a distinguished service professor in the department of engineering and public policy and a research professor at the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon. He is an active pilot and former NASA astronaut. Daniel D. Stancil (IEEE Fellow) is a professor in Carnegie Mellon's department of electrical and computer engineering.

Passengers must also be informed of the very real risks posed by their use of PEDs, especially on flights that use GPS approaches. Turkish Airlines' announcement is straightforward: "Mobile phones interfere with the flight instruments and have a negative effect on flight safety." The technical standards for GPS approaches could be modified to ensure that any loss of signal is immediately flagged to the crew, particularly during landings.
Taken together, the actions outlined above should enable regulators and the airline industry to better characterize and manage the risk that RF emissions from consumer electronics poses to aviation safety. In an industry that has eliminated or is effectively managing most large and obvious sources of danger, such small but persistent risks warrant serious attention. At present, we believe that passenger use of electronics on board commercial aircraft should continue to be limited and that passengers should not be allowed to operate intentionally radiating devices such as cellphones and wireless computer equipment during critical stages of flight.
Ok so that is one that eliminates your "absolutely no" statement. Note I have bolded the important points for you, the most important ones being the qualifications... Your references got any better ones:confused:

UK civil aviation authority said:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/389/srg_acp_00021-01-030303.pdf
For safety reasons, the Regulatory Authorities should continue to prohibit the use of portable telephones by passengers on aircraft whilst the engines are running (p6)
And there is number 2...

simoninsingapore said:
...and it actually takes energy to turn it off, and also wastes the battery and the little on/off button, plus I forget.
Please don't use the excuse that "I forget" or "wastes battery" or "takes energy"... very lame. At least have enough guts to say "because I don't want to". I know, I won't turn off my mobile to save 0.03c in electricity:mrgreen:

I would make the same point again, because noone seems to have absorbed it: there's a worrying and uncritical trusting of authority figures here...
Please reference your sources that counter the evidence of the authority figures
Kind regards
Steve
 

JohnK

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Some silly questions that I am sure have very logical answers.

Is any airline currently conducting a trial allowing use of mobile phones on certain aircraft? If not right now then this trial will be happening in the near future. Yes? How will it be safe to use mobile phones in an aircraft in the near future but it is not safe to use mobile phones in an aircraft right now? What is the difference between a normal aircraft and an aircraft that will be used for the trial of mobile phones? Is there some magical equipment that will make the operation of an aircraft safe while mobile phones are used? If this magical equipment exists right now then why not have its installation in aircraft compulsory just in case passengers forget to switch off mobile phones and compromise the safety of the aircraft?

Forgive me for being a little sceptical....
 

oz_mark

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JohnK said:
Some silly questions that I am sure have very logical answers.

Is any airline currently conducting a trial allowing use of mobile phones on certain aircraft? If not right now then this trial will be happening in the near future. Yes? How will it be safe to use mobile phones in an aircraft in the near future but it is not safe to use mobile phones in an aircraft right now? What is the difference between a normal aircraft and an aircraft that will be used for the trial of mobile phones? Is there some magical equipment that will make the operation of an aircraft safe while mobile phones are used? If this magical equipment exists right now then why not have its installation in aircraft compulsory just in case passengers forget to switch off mobile phones and compromise the safety of the aircraft?

Forgive me for being a little sceptical....

Even during the trials, mobile phones need to be switched off during the critical parts of a flight (mostly take off and landing), as there is little scope for correcting anything that goes wrong in these parts of the flights. Planes equipped to use mobile phones are equipped with a cell on board the aircraft and the phone communicates with this rather than a terrestial phone base, which amongst other things reduces the amount of power the phones use and emit in their attempts to communicate.

Aviation safety is not something that should be taken for granted, and the fact that it is as safe as it is today should not make people become complacent about the very real issues that are faced in making it as safe as possible.
 

ethernet

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EU bans all Indonesian airlines

Just in BBC NEWS | World | Europe | EU bans all Indonesian airlines
All 51 Indonesian airlines will be banned from the EU
All Indonesian airlines including national carrier Garuda are to be banned from the European Union.
An updated blacklist of unsafe airlines also includes operators from Bulgaria, Moldova, Angola and Ukraine. Indonesian carriers do not currently fly to Europe, but the ban serves as a warning to consumers not to use these airlines elsewhere in the world.

While Aussie creates security theatre to look like it is doing *something* - the real threat is perhaps, from unsafe 'self regulation' practices. One thinks East Indie is unlucky to be singled out like this, as some other carriers may like issues, and who knows, maybe worse, but with better 'cover up' practices.

Lots of accidents - Helicopters, Boats being washed up on beaches, or ineffectual govt agencies napping at the wheel - coprporate regulation, or star ratings on air conditioners. Just maybe, the money would be better spent on enforcing/policing standards. The question is, where are these planes and pilots now flying, and what others don't meet the standards muster.

Thankfully the EU is taking the lead, and without any 'Dalai Lama shyness.
 

JohnK

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oz_mark said:
Aviation safety is not something that should be taken for granted, and the fact that it is as safe as it is today should not make people become complacent about the very real issues that are faced in making it as safe as possible.
I agree. So why even contemplate allowing the use of mobile phones even after take off and before landing. The aircraft could encounter turbulence or some other issue that will require full use of the controls without any interference.

If the safety of the aircraft is the real issue, and there are people that leave phones switched on at all times, I would be looking for some sort of technology that would jam any sort of signal received/transmitted by mobile phones even to the point where it renders the mobile phone useless for duration of the flight.
 
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