Loyalty Bonus Changes: November 30 Draws Near

[simongr]

That would require you to use another carrier 45 times which does exactly show loyalty.

 

[richie9x]

I still find it intriguing that Qantas would introduce a new tier at 3600 SCs, but limit loyalty bonus earning to the first 2000 SCs!!!

The only way i can rationalise it is that they are effectively taking away one benefit to 'pay' for the platinum one. I assume that SCs and FF points have some nominal value within Qantas. So they could justify the expense in setting up platinum one by reducing the FF bonus.

 

[Leumas]

I understand how QF justified this change, but I still don't understand how they think it helps the customers and generate goodwill in the long run.

Customer-centric, anyone?

 

[dfcatch]

I read a lot of people upset here. On one hand I understand it. But on the other it is a loyalty thing for Frequent flyers. That is what this still offers. If you are Gold (SG) or above, you will still get at least 1 per year. This I am guessing is QF's rational for a loyal frequent flyer.

The people most upset here are the people wanting everything from QF and obviously not "Frequently" flying. There is competition in the marketplace. If you don't like what QF offer, vote with your wallet.

My Mother, and both my daughters loose out here. But I am not complaining, as they are not frequent flyers! My daughters are not even "occasional" flyers!

The issue here is the concept of "loyalty" hence why it's called a "loyalty bonus".

1/ Firstly let's remember that it replaced upgrade credits.

2/ Frequency of travel is already rewarded via points earned, status benefits, status bonus, etc.

3/ The idea of loyalty bonus (whether upgrade credits or points) is to grow and encourage long-term loyalty.
It is designed to stop you from spreading loyalty between QF and other carriers. It is designed to maintain loyalty for the in between times when lifetime status is so far off you don't bother worrying about it.
And it's designed to grow and nurture your "quoted" family members who otherwise would be flying TT, JQ or similar.
Let's not forget that our newly minted WP1's started somewhere as lowly QF Bronze flyers.

"Frequent" flyers get rewarded via status and the many bonus opportunities.

"Loyalty" which was primarily rewarded by the Loyalty Bonus - is no longer rewarded.

This farce of a new structure - will eventually be enhanced to nothing. I give it 24 months max under the current management of QF and QFF.
A measly 32000 points to a flyer who earns 2000 SCs a year is nothing. And will do absolutely NADA to change that persons flying choices.

The cap on 4 bonuses is ridiculous and makes no sense other to confirm that this decision was made by a bean counter who has ZERO concept of loyalty, HVC growth and program strategy.

The reset of SCs defeats the purpose of the Loyalty Bonus and will cost QF more in lost revenue (opportunity cost) from occasional flyers than the reduced points liability will.
And if their modeling says otherwise - it's because the QF revenue is being inaccurately reported and the QFF costs overstated.

I have given QF significant benefit of the doubt over recent times.

I have been very generous and appreciative since the QFF lunch as well.

However - the more I reflect, and the more I analyze the decisions, the more I reach the same conclusions.

To quote another AFFer - QF "just doesn't get it".

With all due respect to Steph Tully and Simon Hickey, their candid responses betrayed the PR spin and body language doesn't lie.
The more I reflect - the more I realize that they truly "don't get it". The discussion and comments regarding the loyalty bonus and the fixation on reducing the points liability was enormously telling.

In my effort to not personalize my criticism - I hope that the bean counter mentality is from above Steph and Simon's pay grade. If it's not - then guys - it's time to change your strategy, inject new talent into your team or move on.

You put enormous effort and expense into the QFF lunch (and let's hope it wasn't 'just' to promote WP1), but every dollar you spent is completely wasted unless you wake up and "get it".

At the moment - QF still has significant advantages over DJ, which is the only reason the abrasion doesn't turn into an arterial outflow.

But one major advantage DJ has, that they will ruthlessly exploit as they refine it.....

They "get it".

 

[MYT105]

I have to agree this change is definitely a step in the wrong direction, and will probably reduce loyalty in the lower levels of membership. For a person who fly's regularly but always gets discount economy tickets it makes it really hard to get to the 500 points, as discount economy on a SYD-MEL or BNE flight is only 10 points each way, so to get to 500 points is 25 return trips or one trip a fortnight, which I would classify as a frequent flyer. So if they get to the point where they are one or two trips away from the 500 points and there membership year ticks over they have lost all there hard earned SC's. So what would they do the next year, they can either keep flying Qantas and get to silver, which is 250 SC's and then either keep flying to try and make the 500 or move there flights to Virgin and get Silver on there as well, and maybe never comeback to Qantas?

I know I was 60SC's away from the loyalty bonus on the 30th of November, I am now 290 away, which I might make but it does raise the question is it worth it, as I will be unlikely to get to the second bonus, unless there is some unexpected long haul trips come up, so any points I make above those needed for the first bonus will be lost, so why even try? if they had at least a 2 year retention then it would be something better.

 

[simongr]

Whilst I don't like the change dfcatch I don't necessarily agree with your spin on loyalty either. I don't know whether low status low frequency fliers are influenced by the loyalty bonus or are even aware of the bonus. I don't necessarily agree that QF want or should to be investing in those fliers. Flying the same carrier every year once or maybe twice may meet the definition of loyalty but not I think the intent of this bonus.

I don't know whether QF should or does even care about those fliers as a large chunk of them buy simply on price (and then complain about a lack of service). There are good examples on here of people who would hit 450 SCs every 18 months and partially do that due to the loyalty bonus but is that not just because of the existence of the bonus but because someone that they are close to is an avid AFFer.

I actually think the real loyalty risk is people at the other end. A return to LHR or JED in J nets me on average 480 SCs (more if I do my home work). Once I hit 1500+ SCs in say June if I have another flight planned that will take me to 2000 I am fairly sure I will book it with OW and credit to QFF. If however I only have domestic flights and am fairly sure I wont hit another 400 SCs before the end of Sep I will in all likelihood switch my DOM flying to VA/DJ to retain my DJ/VA Plat. Partially this will be because there wont be a loyalty bonus but not because of the points earned but because of QF's approach in this regard.

This is another instance where QFF and QF are making me think more strategically about my flying choices.

 

[medhead]

One could conceivably fly SYD-MEL 45 times in a year and not get a loyalty bonus, I would certainly count that as a frequent flyer!

Probably more like 49 times a year.

That would require you to use another carrier 45 times which does exactly show loyalty.

I dare say markis10 forgot a vv :idea:

You put enormous effort and expense into the QFF lunch (and let's hope it wasn't 'just' to promote WP1), but every dollar you spent is completely wasted unless you wake up and "get it".

At the moment - QF still has significant advantages over DJ, which is the only reason the abrasion doesn't turn into an arterial outflow.

But one major advantage DJ has, that they will ruthlessly exploit as they refine it.....

They "get it".

The pilot last night thanked us for flying with QF and said they knew we had a choice. I'll wait to see if the platitudes turn into action.

 

[simongr]

Probably more like 49 times a year.

I dare say markis10 forgot a vv :idea:

49 returns SYD-MEL would net you 980 SCs minimum.

 

[travelislife]

I just caught on to this change and have been burned by it. I was 80SC short of my next loyalty bonus, I am going to get those 80SC this weekend with 4xY flights, now it has jumped out to 320SC on my account summary!

The old system was great for fliers who used Qantas for their once/twice a year trips and I think would definitely have given the feel good factor when noticed on their account statements and kept them booking with Qantas. Now it has changed to a frequent flyer bonus as opposed to a loyalty bonus by changing the time frame.

Also does this reset to 500SC at the end of my membership year?

 

[medhead]

49 returns SYD-MEL would net you 980 SCs minimum.

I didn't say returns! [-]45[/-] 49 times MEL-SYD or vice versa. That is only 490 SC and the vv removes the direction addressing the pedantic (IMO) point that 49 MEL-SYD, means 49 SYD-MEL with another carrier.

 

[dfcatch]

Whilst I don't like the change dfcatch I don't necessarily agree with your spin on loyalty either.

I don't know whether low status low frequency fliers are influenced by the loyalty bonus or are even aware of the bonus.

I was!

I maintained loyalty to QF and maintained my QP for the benefits including upgrade credits, and subsequently the loyalty bonus.

And I'm now WP, spending a gazilion of my own personal dollars every year on QF.

Family and friends are rewarded for longer term loyalty by the "80 SC to go until your next loyalty bonus".

The type of unimportant occasional flyers you refer to are already taken care of by the 18 month point expiry rule.

You're not wrong when you refer to your own example for higher end flyers.

But really....

You're a WP with 1500 SC, earning a 100% points bonus on every flight, on top of the base points, cabin bonus points, and your annual CC points haul....... Are you (generally speaking) seriously going to change your carrier choice for the next 500 SC because of a measly 8000 points ???

Well - you might . But the average J corporate flyer isn't.

If they're at 1500 SC flying J - they've already made the decision who to fly.... Or it's a corporate airline choice made above their heads.

Don't forget that at 1500 SC your loyalty is already rewarded by WP status/benefits.

I'm not questioning your own personal flying incentive decisions, but you are confusing "value" (who should Qantas be marketing at), versus "loyalty" (which is what this bonus was all about).


PS. IMO your argument accurately represents the QF position which reinforces my view that this benefit will be ultimately "enhanced".

 

[kpc]

I had, IIRC, 350 SCs "lost" as my membership year starts Oct 1, and my next flight next week would have taken me over the old threshold of 450Scs for another 5000 pts bonus but my Loyalty SC balance has been set to zero again:evil:. Stange concept this loyalty bonus in that QF expects you to be loyal to them but now this ...it seems all one way traffic in QFs direction

 

[simongr]

But really....

You're a WP with 1500 SC, earning a 100% points bonus on every flight, on top of the base points, cabin bonus points, and your annual CC points haul....... Are you (generally speaking) seriously going to change your carrier choice for the next 500 SC because of a measly 8000 points ???

Well - you might . But the average J corporate flyer isn't.

If they're at 1500 SC flying J - they've already made the decision who to fly.... Or it's a corporate airline choice made above their heads.

Don't forget that at 1500 SC your loyalty is already rewarded by WP status/benefits.

I'm not questioning your own personal flying incentive decisions, but you are confusing "value" (who should Qantas be marketing at), versus "loyalty" (which is what this bonus was all about).

PS. IMO your argument accurately represents the QF position which reinforces my view that this benefit will be ultimately "enhanced".

Once I tip over 1200 SCs next year every flight will be critically assessed to maximise earning, minimise cost and maximise champagne quality (my three critical success factors for travel).

DJ/VA have made this possible through a status match and QF have made this probable through their actions.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of loyalty though

 

[dfcatch]

Once I tip over 1200 SCs next year every flight will be critically assessed to maximise earning, minimise cost and maximise champagne quality (my three critical success factors for travel).
DJ/VA have made this possible through a status match and QF have made this probable through their actions.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of loyalty though

Allow me to rephrase:

As a WP - what are your (simongr's) incentives to maintain loyalty to QF :

SHORT TERM
- 100% points bonus on all flights
- Cabin bonus on premium flights
- Lounge access
- F Lounge access
- OW Lounge access
- Achievable goal of earning SC's to retain WP
- Occasional special treatment / op-up
- Additional baggage allowance
- Priority baggage
- Priority check-in
- Priority boarding
Oops - almost forgot - Loyalty Bonus


LONG TERM
- Achievable goal of earning LTS/LTG



Now lets look at the incentives for an occasional Bronze flyer:

SHORT TERM
- none

LONG TERM
- Loyalty Bonus (well it was before this week's changes).

So - I put it to you:

1/ To you, a premium WP flyer - the existence or lack of Loyalty Bonus, in the general scheme of things, is unlikely to change your flying habits, carrier choice, status goals etc. (But of course you'll take the free points). I put it to you that access to the F lounge, implementation of Priority Boarding, or achievement of LTS/LTG are more of an incentive/disincentive to your carrier choices.

2/ The Loyalty Bonus was primarily designed and targeted at the occasional flyer to incentivise them to have some token reward for "medium-term" loyalty to Qantas.
Something to garner some loyalty from those who don't earn enough for status, and will never see LTS as an achievable goal.

3/ Occasional flyers (many of whom didn't know or care about the bonus) - now have no reason whatsoever to display any loyalty to QF other than price (on which QF almost never wins).


At the lunch - Simon and Steph made the point quite clearly that their market research showed a lack of understanding of the loyalty bonus - hence why it was an easy target for reducing points liability for QFF / costs for QF.

Given my point 1 above, given that QF's market research is geared towards those who fit into my point 1 (ie. status/regular flyers) - of course it's an easy conclusion for QF to reach as they have. (Including the limiting of the bonus to 4 per year).

As Steph Tully unambigiously stated - "Points aren't free".

I maintain what I said earlier - they don't "get it".

Loyalty programs are not cost-centres - they are investments in future revenue and brand loyalty.

 

[simongr]

Again I agree with the majority of what you have said and it could be considered to be a reward for loyalty for less frequent fliers - we do have to recognise QF have done research showing that it wasnt a factor for a lot of people. It might be a vehicle that could reward loyalty but it seems (in QF's opinion) most people weren't on that bus or knew it existed.

2/ The Loyalty Bonus was primarily designed and targeted at the occasional flyer to incentivise them to have some token reward for "medium-term" loyalty to Qantas.
Something to garner some loyalty from those who don't earn enough for status, and will never see LTS as an achievable goal.

I will take issue with this though - wasn't the loyalty bonus a replacement for upgrade credits? I thought is what drove the amount - 5000 points being the equivalent of a short sector upgrade. I wouldnt say that upgrade credits are that much of an incentive for a less frequent flier. Yes they would be a nice bonus but not much use given the lack of frequent travel?

 

[oz_mark]

I will take issue with this though - wasn't the loyalty bonus a replacement for upgrade credits? I thought is what drove the amount - 5000 points being the equivalent of a short sector upgrade. I wouldnt say that upgrade credits are that much of an incentive for a less frequent flier. Yes they would be a nice bonus but not much use given the lack of frequent travel?

It did replace Upgrade Credits, and they had a bit of a habit of expiring on me!

 

[serfty]

Once I tip over 1200 SCs next year every flight will be critically assessed to maximise earning, minimise cost and maximise champagne quality (my three critical success factors for travel).

DJ/VA have made this possible through a status match and QF have made this probable through their actions.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of loyalty though

32 days ago I had 1750 SC's "expire". This was the lowest for me in the last six years - for the three years '08-'10 I averaged 3100.

In that last 6 years I have had more than 16000 SC 'expire'. This year I expect it to total 1500 - if any more than that it's unplanned currently.

The 'breakage' of my daughters accumulated 390 odd loyalty count simply sucks! I'm sure there a bean counter looking forward to spending up on the performance bonus boost they gained from her and all those in similar circumstance.

 

[medhead]

It did replace Upgrade Credits, and they had a bit of a habit of expiring on me!

I made sure I used mine, might have even paid for a more expensive fare to do so (can't remember if that was required or not)

The 'breakage' of my daughters accumulated 390 odd loyalty count simply sucks! I'm sure there a bean counter looking forward to spending up on the performance bonus boost they gained from her and all those in similar circumstance.

735 to add to that bonus from this family (+ my lost 60)

 

[simongr]

Just starting to throw some maths and analysis around on this. One of the big things for me in this was the anniversary period reset of SCs contributing to loyalty bonus. Now this might be just a luck thing so I thought how would this have affected me. So I grabbed my travel history from QF for the past 12 months and worked out what my SC balance would have been at each month end and thus what my loss of SCs would have been if my anniversary date was different to my actual date. the result swere interesting. Based on my calcs I would consistently have lost a large chunk of contribution to a loyalty bonus:

Mar - 360
Apr - 150
May - 190
Jun - 240
Jul - 320
Aug - 360
Sep - 200
Oct - 360
Nov - 390

So essentially if I maintain a similar flying pattern I can be confident in losing a loyalty bonus each year that I would previously have received.

I will try and do another calc of what actual points I might have lost annually under the new system (ignoring the 50K PG).

Just wish I hadn't lost my spreadsheet with all my flights from 2006 in the BA LHR T3 lounge

 

[oz_mark]

So essentially if I maintain a similar flying pattern I can be confident in losing a loyalty bonus each year that I would previously have received.

I will try and do another calc of what actual points I might have lost annually under the new system (ignoring the 50K PG).

Keep in mind that the calculation will also need to include the uplift in the loyalty points awarded as you reach each hurdle compared to before.