Losing QFF points and calling in the media

[RichardMEL]

I totally understand the customer-centric view of JohnK and other like minded souls.

However that's exactly what it is. And it misses the point(yeah yeah punny)

the whole idea of these schemes is to *KEEP YOU SPENDING* hence the dumping of points offers, card sign up bonuses etc. It's about revenue now (and future).

If you earmed 1 million points in 1998 and they didn't expire that's useless to QF today (from their point of view).

remember loyalty schemes are NOT all about us as customers, they are about generating revenue for the company that provides them, so they WANT to keep you invested(literally) in the program.

And honestly, if you're THAT invested in keeping the points, then activity once a year or 18 months is seriously not that hard.

The points action group or whoever they are go on about loyalty going both ways, but that's only when it suits their argument. If you do nothing, have zero interaction with the company for a year or more, then how are YOU showing loyalty?

If I had a girlfriend (or heck, good friend) who I had regular contact with and then they just ghosted me(as the kids say ) for 18 months yeah I'd delete them too.

Again, I totally understand th selfish/customer-centric view of this.. hy should the points expire if I *earned* them one way or another... but clearly airlines learned their lesson.. and the hotels too.... if you don't provide things like points expiry then a) you potentially lose future revenue and b) you accrue liability and expense(when points are redeemed). That's not terribly smart business sense.

Back when these schemes started there was no points expiry but that utopia could not be sustained as it added up too much on the books... and as I note above it did not force consumers to interact with the brand if they did not want to. So, points expiry.

You may not see it as being fair, but guess what it's their game. We're pawns who play it in a shifting landscape. points are not a global currency (even with various means of exchange and transfer between programs, it's not like the USD or Yen)... You can't apply the same principles you might with holding of cash as you can with points.

I get it. You want to. and for ome, like John, the squeaky wheel has been oiled, but there are realities in life and one of those is sometimes it's not fair or doesn't work the way you want. It's also not too hard to play between the flags and keep things going.

 

[rock86]

Yes they should. I don't see the issue. Qantas or any other company that receives payment for points should be liable forever and a day. They need to factor this into their model.

If you don't see the issue, then that speaks volumes.

 

[JohnK]

If you don't see the issue, then that speaks volumes.

The issue that hard earned points expire so cheap points flooding the market can continue? No don't see it.

 

[mannej]

The issue that hard earned points expire so cheap points flooding the market can continue? No don't see it.

But the expiry of points doesn't discriminate between hard earned points or cheaply earned points does it?

 

[RichardMEL]

The notion of "cheap points" is becoming more misleading too IMHO.

Given since the recent RBA changes to CC rules, what a year or so back, more and more bonus points offers for CC signups (or churns) are predicated on a spend level that easily pays for those points(to QF) with the spend (eg: spend $3k in 90 days, get xx points). Gone are the days where you just sign up for a card, get 50k points and cancel it. So, are they really THAT cheap?

Yes, QF have double points promos, but you're still paying for them, more or less, by purchasing the points earning fares.

So cheap is relative isn't it?

I'd also note that the "value" of a loyalty point, such as a QFF point, is subjective to the consumer (but not to QF Loyalty who probably value them at fractions of a cent). Consider - the "value" of spending points on toasters, woolies vouchers or other consumeables vs the "value" of an flight upgrade award vs the "value" of a full flight award, points for hotel stay, etc. All very different and likely very subjective

A $1 AUD I spend in Melbourne towards a can of coke has the same value as $1 spent towards a car in Perth, oir a drug deal in Kings Cross.

 

[JohnK]

But the expiry of points doesn't discriminate between hard earned points or cheaply earned points does it?

No but there is greater likelihood a hard earned point will expire before a cheaply earned point?

Everyone has a different opinion on this matter. I pay a lot of money to earn my points. Yes the points expire but I don't have to agree with that concept. And I sure as hell won't give up the fight if my points do expire. I will do everything to get them back and I don't care what that does to cheap points.

 

[mannej]

No but there is greater likelihood a hard earned point will expire before a cheaply earned point?

How do you figure that?

 

[RichardMEL]

No but there is greater likelihood a hard earned point will expire before a cheaply earned point?

Umm no. A point is a point regardless of the "cost" to you to purchase it.. and if you have no activity for 18 months they will expire regardless of when they were earned or how much. So sorry your comment makes no sense to me.

And that's fine to not agree, and as you know QF currently offer challenges, so if you did let your points expire then you know what you'd have to do to get them back. QF may change this policy of course, but that's the current option

 

[OATEK]

How do you figure that?

I think JohnK is saying that if the majority of points are given away freely for all sorts of non-flying, then perhaps less chance of a long break in there when they could expire. Not sure there is any science behind that, but I do see if you earn most of you pnts from flying, then it narrows your options to earn if say illness or other even occurs. If you get lots say by Cc then they will still be posting while you pay the Drs etc.

 

[JohnK]

How do you figure that?

A person that is churning credit cards is not likely to let points expire especially someone that churns 3-4 credit cards per year.

A person that only earns points from flying and does not fly very often will not have enough for an award in a short space of time and is at greater risk if something happens.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

A person that is churning credit cards is not likely to let points expire especially someone that churns 3-4 credit cards per year.

A person that only earns points from flying and does not fly very often will not have enough for an award in a short space of time and is at greater risk if something happens.

You're right JohnK. The vast majority of folks are in the 2nd bucket you describe. I don't think 18-month rolling activity is the perfect model, but then again I don't see anyone doing it right.

How would you change the program and deal with points expiring so that members and the company are all happy?

 

[basso]

You're right JohnK. The vast majority of folks are in the 2nd bucket you describe. I don't think 18-month rolling activity is the perfect model, but then again I don't see anyone doing it right.

How would you change the program and deal with points expiring so that members and the company are all happy?

It's an interesting question. I think the Qantas and Virgin models are ok, if perhaps the period is a little short. Perhaps 36 months, with an option to pay to extend?

I dislike the SQ/MH model of expiry.

The italian model of expiring the whole program is worse.

 

[mviy]

A person that only earns points from flying and does not fly very often will not have enough for an award in a short space of time and is at greater risk if something happens.

Provided you shop sometimes at Woolworths you can get your Woolworths Dollars to convert to QANTAS points. From time to time there's a promo where you can spend e.g. $30 and get 2,000 Woolworths points converting to $10 Woolworths Dollars. $10 Woolworths Dollars converts to 870 points. Every lot of $10 is converted once a quarter to QF points.

This is a good alternative for those having a break from flying and not using a QF points earning credit card.

 

[Himeno]

Provided you shop sometimes at Woolworths you can get your Woolworths Dollars to convert to QANTAS points. From time to time there's a promo where you can spend e.g. $30 and get 2,000 Woolworths points converting to $10 Woolworths Dollars. $10 Woolworths Dollars converts to 870 points. Every lot of $10 is converted once a quarter to QF points.

This is a good alternative for those having a break from flying and not using a QF points earning credit card.

as long as you get sent usable offers and don't have to spend $2000 to get 870 points...

 

[JohnK]

How would you change the program and deal with points expiring so that members and the company are all happy?

Perhaps a one time devaluation similar to what AA, UA and SQ have done recently.

Revert back to 3 year expiry or longer. Clear warning with email at say 6 months and 3 months before expiry and perhaps even follow up call at 1 month vefore expiry. Don't bury warnings at the bottom of an email someone won't read. In my case Hhonors did not provide any warning .

Distinguish between BIS points earned and credit card points with a much higher weighting to the BIS points earned.

And possibly even availability restriction by status. Yes this could be difficult but someone earning credit card points won't see the same availability of awards as status members.

 

[oz_mark]

The theme that runs through many of the complaints seems to revolve around the notification process, rather that the expiry themselves.

I have never run the risk of losing points in Qantas, but in the programs I have, I have generally got an email specific to the issue of expiration. Now some say that have got this from Qantas, some say they haven't. But I think, that is where Qantas needs to look to deal with the issue.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

It's an interesting question. I think the Qantas and Virgin models are ok, if perhaps the period is a little short. Perhaps 36 months, with an option to pay to extend?

In public QF Loyalty docs, they say breakage (expiry) floats around 10%. They also did $1.2B in miles sales last year. Let's assume 10% breakage on new miles earned in 2017 (I know it's not accurate but it demonstrates the point). That's $120M directly to the bottom line as expired points. If QF were to extend this to 36 months, essentially doubling the time-frame for expiring miles from 18 -> 36mo, it fundamentally means QF takes a 50% revenue hit from that line item, with no guarantee the gap can be made up in other areas of the business. There is also a cash flow and deferred revenue impact. IFRS standards mean loyalty programs can't realise revenue from points until the points have been utilized. Adding extra time before revenue hits the books won't be good for the market or investors.

Distinguish between BIS points earned and credit card points with a much higher weighting to the BIS points earned.

I like your thinking. In the background, this could act as a third currency after QF points & status credits. Comes with risks around making the program more complex.

Personally, I believe there is a better option out there around expiry. While I don't know what a points-expiry utopia looks like at this stage - there has to be a better solution which can benefit both members and the airline. Maybe I need a few more coffees to dream up the solution!

 

[JohnK]

I have never run the risk of losing points in Qantas, but in the programs I have, I have generally got an email specific to the issue of expiration. Now some say that have got this from Qantas, some say they haven't. But I think, that is where Qantas needs to look to deal with the issue.

I recently had to deal with 3 accounts expiring as dad, mum and brother do not earn QFF points other than Woolworths before the revamp. I think I have the email but the warning was inside the monthly points balance newsletter. I am not convinced this is the best place for the warning of points expiring.

 

[Moody]

To say this thread has become tedious would be such an understatement that it should be referenced in any Google search of that word.

There is a simple way to please both the Qantas SYCOPHANTS (capitals completely justified) and the bleeding heart FF battlers.

All Qantas have to do is present this text in large bold font at the time of the customer signing up to the FF scheme :-

WHILST BEING MARKETED AS A LOYALTY SCHEME TO OUR CUSTOMERS, THE QFF PROGRAMME IS IN FACT A MONEY MAKING SCHEME FOR QANTAS WHERE WE SELL AN ELUSIVE CURRENCY CALLED "POINTS" WHICH WE WILL ENDEAVOUR TO MAKE DISAPPEAR BY TAKING THEM FROM DECEASED ESTATES, CASUAL FLYERS (WHO WE DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYWAY), AND EVEN REGULAR FLYERS WHO WERE DISTRACTED FOR MORE THAN 18 MONTHS BY SOME LIFE-THREATENING DISEASE OR OTHER IRRELEVANCY. WHERE WE ARE FOILED BY PESKY CUSTOMERS WHO READ OUR JUNK MAIL (WHERE WE TRY TO HIDE THE PATHETIC WARNING OUR LAWYERS SAY WE HAVE TO GIVE), OUR BACKUP PLAN IS TO MAKE IT NIGHE IMPOSSIBLE TO REDEEM FF POINTS FOR der FLIGHTS, AND EVEN IF THEY MANAGE TO BOOK SUCH FLIGHTS THE "FEES" WILL = 75% OF THE PURCHASEABLE FARE. BUT PLEASE DO SEE OUR FINE RANGE OF TOASTERS AVAILABLE FOR A MERE 1M POINTS

CLICK HERE TO AGREE TO OUR FINE BUSINESS MODEL

 

[RB]

I just received an email from the NSW TAB-I hold an account that basically gets used once a year for small Melb Cup bets. The email subject was "Your TAB Reward Points Are Due to Expire." When opening the email this is what I see first

I have 137 points-Apparently 600 points gets you a $2 bonus bet.
I understand they were apparently caught out previously with poor money laundering tracking, but seems they can get the message "up front & centre "